I think (if i remember correctly) the population in Sweden-Finland was aprox 1 million people at that time.SWE(vorre) said:
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Fredrik82 said:I think (if i remember correctly) the population in Sweden-Finland was aprox 1 million people at that time.
Actually I think it was far less...
It was so that Norway was richer and Denmark had an higher population then "Sweden", but at this time Sweden also contained Finland.
Because of the finnish territories Sweden was both richer and had an higher population than both Denmark and Norway.
Also, the reason why Sweden eats up Denmark in the game and not in reality is because of the support Denmark allways had and the only way for Sweden to get support was to put herself into awkward positions.
For example:
Sweden were at war with: Denmark, Poland and Russia 3 times between 1600 and 1630.
From the 17th-19th century Russia told Sweden that if Sweden attacked Denmark Russia would take Sweden in the back.
Second example:
Netherlands, France and England all threathened to attack Sweden at many different times if Sweden continued their siege at Copenhagen. Even when these were Swedens allies.
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Then some answer to earlier posts:
Sweden was strongest between 1648-1658.
Yes, France made peace with Denmark for Sweden without even Sweden was allowed to be there.
In exchange Sweden had to give up half of Jylland, Ostlandet, Finmark etc that swedish troops possesed, and Sweden couldnt even say something about it.
Yes, Denmark only got a little money at the end of the Great Nordic War.
But it was of many reasons:
First: Denmark had first already accept peace after 4000 Swedish troops were sieging Copenhagen. But they redeclared war after Prussia got into the war, Russia succeded to take Baltikum and the swedish army had frozen to death in Ucraina.
Second: After the danish slaughter in Scania after Denmark restarted the war, Denmark only demanded some money and some parts of the swedish possessions at its borders in Germany.
No, Denmark had as much a German culture as Sweden had one.
IF something should be done, it should be first: Sweden and Norway should be better friends at the start (Making the alliance and the vassalization hold longer), some events to make Denmark and Russia allies.
And at some times giving Sweden BB points so Poland etc declares war on them.
Because of the finnish territories Sweden was both richer and had an higher population than both Denmark and Norway.
Also, the reason why Sweden eats up Denmark in the game and not in reality is because of the support Denmark allways had and the only way for Sweden to get support was to put herself into awkward positions.
For example:
Sweden were at war with: Denmark, Poland and Russia 3 times between 1600 and 1630.
From the 17th-19th century Russia told Sweden that if Sweden attacked Denmark Russia would take Sweden in the back.
Second example:
Netherlands, France and England all threathened to attack Sweden at many different times if Sweden continued their siege at Copenhagen. Even when these were Swedens allies.
-----------
Then some answer to earlier posts:
Sweden was strongest between 1648-1658.
Yes, France made peace with Denmark for Sweden without even Sweden was allowed to be there.
In exchange Sweden had to give up half of Jylland, Ostlandet, Finmark etc that swedish troops possesed, and Sweden couldnt even say something about it.
Yes, Denmark only got a little money at the end of the Great Nordic War.
But it was of many reasons:
First: Denmark had first already accept peace after 4000 Swedish troops were sieging Copenhagen. But they redeclared war after Prussia got into the war, Russia succeded to take Baltikum and the swedish army had frozen to death in Ucraina.
Second: After the danish slaughter in Scania after Denmark restarted the war, Denmark only demanded some money and some parts of the swedish possessions at its borders in Germany.
No, Denmark had as much a German culture as Sweden had one.
IF something should be done, it should be first: Sweden and Norway should be better friends at the start (Making the alliance and the vassalization hold longer), some events to make Denmark and Russia allies.
And at some times giving Sweden BB points so Poland etc declares war on them.
Skarion said:
Actually not true. In 1679 France imposed peace, where Sweden had to pay Denmark a little money, and to cede Brandenburg some minor land. When in fact ALL Swedish land in Germany was occupied by Denmark and Brandenburg, and Halland, Gotland, parts of Västergötland, and parts of Herjedalen were occupied by danish forces
Altho it's true that the danish offensive in Skåne was stopped after the bloody battle in Lund.Skarion said:
Thats what i suggested as a quickfix for AI, as Norway tends to not follow the alliance when Sweden DOWs Novgorod
And stupid AI Denmark never invites them back into the alliance >< Then only a little time pass before Sweden DOWs Norway as it's on Swedens hitlist
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It was not that time I talked about.. (wrote about
)I dont find what I talked about right now, but I will search for it later on.
(Got a handy book: "Krig och krigsmakt" Under svensk stormaktstid. It takes up all wars, peaces, treaties etc between 1500-1780.)
Skarion trying to restart the eternal swedish fantasy posting, even though we agree to cut it out. We had enough of that and its worthless...Skarion said:
I don't want to keep replying to the enternal swedish fantasy history, so I will try make this make this my last post, its going no where. People refuse to be objective, its ridiculous....
Hmmm if you danes and swedish don't mind me intruding on your little battle... I as an independant observer would like to give my opinion on this matter.
This is observations made in my games (playing Portugal, having fun colonizing, descovering the new world, not really caring about all the warmongering in central Europe):
1- 9 out of 10 times Sweden DOWs Denmark very soon
2- Due to the defensive capabilities of sweden (hellish winters) the danes eventually lose strengh and lose the first war.
3- The danes go on a downward trend from here
4- It is not uncommon to reach 1550 with Sweden anexing Denmark and some other surrounding minors
5- In the 1600's sweden is already a world power able to face about any country except the very most powerfull nations (usually Spain and France if they did good)
So, in conclusion, either Sweden is too strong or Denmark is too weak. IMO the first applies. Just look at the swedish provinces and compare them with other spots in Europe. Were they really that good in the 1400s? If so how did they allow Denmark to gain control?
I've seen this problem ever since i played EUI. Sweden has a hand full of aces while Denmark seems to be set up to be eaten. I'm afraid the Paradox designers reavealed some home love in this
I don't blame them but you swedish folk must realize how annoying this is for the danes. Try to put your nationalism aside and analyze things as they are. Even in MP, if the Dane player doesn't weaken sweden soon he will get his provinces slowly turning blue.
I'm not saying that Denmark should be able to overrun Sweden at ease but they should at least have a fighting chance without having to rush you at the beguining of the game.
This is observations made in my games (playing Portugal, having fun colonizing, descovering the new world, not really caring about all the warmongering in central Europe):
1- 9 out of 10 times Sweden DOWs Denmark very soon
2- Due to the defensive capabilities of sweden (hellish winters) the danes eventually lose strengh and lose the first war.
3- The danes go on a downward trend from here
4- It is not uncommon to reach 1550 with Sweden anexing Denmark and some other surrounding minors
5- In the 1600's sweden is already a world power able to face about any country except the very most powerfull nations (usually Spain and France if they did good)
So, in conclusion, either Sweden is too strong or Denmark is too weak. IMO the first applies. Just look at the swedish provinces and compare them with other spots in Europe. Were they really that good in the 1400s? If so how did they allow Denmark to gain control?
I've seen this problem ever since i played EUI. Sweden has a hand full of aces while Denmark seems to be set up to be eaten. I'm afraid the Paradox designers reavealed some home love in this
I don't blame them but you swedish folk must realize how annoying this is for the danes. Try to put your nationalism aside and analyze things as they are. Even in MP, if the Dane player doesn't weaken sweden soon he will get his provinces slowly turning blue.
I'm not saying that Denmark should be able to overrun Sweden at ease but they should at least have a fighting chance without having to rush you at the beguining of the game.
Nuno said:Hmmm if you danes and swedish don't mind me intruding on your little battle... I as an independant observer would like to give my opinion on this matter.
This is observations made in my games (playing Portugal, having fun colonizing, descovering the new world, not really caring about all the warmongering in central Europe):
1- 9 out of 10 times Sweden DOWs Denmark very soon
2- Due to the defensive capabilities of sweden (hellish winters) the danes eventually lose strengh and lose the first war.
3- The danes go on a downward trend from here
4- It is not uncommon to reach 1550 with Sweden anexing Denmark and some other surrounding minors
5- In the 1600's sweden is already a world power able to face about any country except the very most powerfull nations (usually Spain and France if they did good)
So, in conclusion, either Sweden is too strong or Denmark is too weak. IMO the first applies. Just look at the swedish provinces and compare them with other spots in Europe. Were they really that good in the 1400s? If so how did they allow Denmark to gain control?
I've seen this problem ever since i played EUI. Sweden has a hand full of aces while Denmark seems to be set up to be eaten. I'm afraid the Paradox designers reavealed some home love in this
I don't blame them but you swedish folk must realize how annoying this is for the danes. Try to put your nationalism aside and analyze things as they are. Even in MP, if the Dane player doesn't weaken sweden soon he will get his provinces slowly turning blue.
I'm not saying that Denmark should be able to overrun Sweden at ease but they should at least have a fighting chance without having to rush you at the beguining of the game.
Im swedish (from old danish Skåne, but anyway). I love playing Denmark in EU2.
I think I played Denmark almost as many times as I played Sweden. Claiming that all other posters in this forum are blinded by Swedish nationalism just bcz they come from sweden is simply not true. I dont care much about analyses of the kind:
"AI contry agaisnt other AI country". The AI in EU 2 is weak and it always produce odd results all over the european map. (Ever watched the strange screenshots thread?)
What I do know, is that once I understood how to play this game (not a newbie anymore), I never lose as denmark agaisnt AI Sweden or the opposite.
o That is nothing special, just look how many good players in this forum that do great things with small countries like byzantium against AI OE, lorraine against AI france, navarra against AI Spain. That is hard. Playing denmark against AI sweden, thats easy.From a SP point of view I cant see what diffrence it would make to do denmark stronger, when I allready defeat the swedish AI every time I play.
I wont comment on MP. Bcz I have no experience of MP including both denmark and sweden as human players. Still I imagine that denmark need more strength in MP.
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I don't think playing Denmark in SP is the problem. The in SP is, if you don't play her, Denmark is a lost case. It's not the biggest problem in the world, some would say Austria eating German Minors is worse for the game - but unlike preventing a strong nation to defeat a small nation, the Nordic problem would be easy to solve via events or downgrading Finland. But it's not going to happen!
Anyway, back to the original question: I suggest all events made for MP are put in as "B"-choice or lower. That way it will seldom effect gameplay in SP, unless the nation is played. "German Culture" is powerfull and for a player it should have severe penalty (like now, RR) to balance things out, but normally it's a bad choice for the AI.
Anyway, back to the original question: I suggest all events made for MP are put in as "B"-choice or lower. That way it will seldom effect gameplay in SP, unless the nation is played. "German Culture" is powerfull and for a player it should have severe penalty (like now, RR) to balance things out, but normally it's a bad choice for the AI.
Any decent player can survive with denmark against the AI (unless a peculiar diplomatic situation occurs). The problem is the behaviour when you don't do nothing about it. As i play Portugal most of the times i'm far away enough to see events develop without the presence of a human player. And what i see is that Denmark doesn't have a chance against Sweden.
I never claimed this, but if you look at the posts of some of your fellow countrymen you will realize a bit of national brushing of historical facts. Not really blaming anyone here, i myself think it is ridiculous for portugal to have a colonization bonus smaller than the spanish one so i can perhaps be accused of national bias
I never claimed this, but if you look at the posts of some of your fellow countrymen you will realize a bit of national brushing of historical facts. Not really blaming anyone here, i myself think it is ridiculous for portugal to have a colonization bonus smaller than the spanish one so i can perhaps be accused of national bias
Nuno said:
I agree with that.
I just dont think that those relatively small improvments that has been suggested for Denmark in this thread will be enough to achieve that.
Denmark still have many revolternations, and a complex geography. The AI cant handle that. I think that Denmark would have to be insane strong if the AI are going to survive on its own. (I have very low faith in the AI.)
I mentioned the strange screenshots thread earlier. There are lots of stronger nations than denmark which still end up in that thread. Arent you expecting to much from the AI?
Well, In Vanilla, Sweden gets a lot of leaders before Denmark- Karl Knutson Bond, Engelbrekt etc. Sweden is more powerful than Denmark/Norway very early on.
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SWE(vorre) said:should i trust a dane?
Yes, Denmark was much more powerful than Norway and Sweden combined in the 15th century.
Yes, that is exactly the problem. Sweden should start out weaker then gradually become stronger than Denmark. Right now Sweden is stronger too quickly. And this new event is a killer for Denmark. The effects are simply devastating. sweden should be weakened from the start and then get some events to make it stronger.
Hello!
I'll dare to post in this thread. I doubt that neither Denmark nor Sweden is bugged in this thread. Sweden need all her strenght in order to achieve some of the success she had in real life. Particularly in the 17th century, where Denmark indeed was devastated in the Swedish war of 1657-60. But I'll agree that both Denmark and Sweden were some of the strongest military powers on the globe at that time. However Sweden was land-military even stronger cause her experiences in the 30 years war. In the game however, Sweden never mix in to that war at all. And Ai Denmark get's to face Swedens 30 years war leaders instead of Austria! This should be dealt with! The time before the sons of Gustav Vasa, should be a quiet time, with neither aggressive warfare and for gamebalance, no danish invasions either. Sweden should have Poland as a more important target than Denmark until the 1640s. Could this be discussed with Johan?
That aside I hardly ever see Sweden take on Russia and Poland rather than Denmark. Which she should. She should also in the game be able to grab her baltic empire instead of that Norwegian empire she always gets. I don't think strenghtening Denmark is a good idea then, cause she'll probably destroy Swedens potential power needed to create that baltic empire.
The rest of Swedens game should be to desperately hold on to her empire in face of many strong opponents like Russia. In the 18th century both Sweden and Denmark declined and Sweden lost her Baltic posessions. The Great Northern War of 1700-21 was needed to crush Swedens claim to be a global power for all time. So I don't think she needs to be tweaked down, only give her a more peaceful Ai in the beginning and then direct her towards her baltic posessions.
Cheers
I'll dare to post in this thread. I doubt that neither Denmark nor Sweden is bugged in this thread. Sweden need all her strenght in order to achieve some of the success she had in real life. Particularly in the 17th century, where Denmark indeed was devastated in the Swedish war of 1657-60. But I'll agree that both Denmark and Sweden were some of the strongest military powers on the globe at that time. However Sweden was land-military even stronger cause her experiences in the 30 years war. In the game however, Sweden never mix in to that war at all. And Ai Denmark get's to face Swedens 30 years war leaders instead of Austria! This should be dealt with! The time before the sons of Gustav Vasa, should be a quiet time, with neither aggressive warfare and for gamebalance, no danish invasions either. Sweden should have Poland as a more important target than Denmark until the 1640s. Could this be discussed with Johan?
That aside I hardly ever see Sweden take on Russia and Poland rather than Denmark. Which she should. She should also in the game be able to grab her baltic empire instead of that Norwegian empire she always gets. I don't think strenghtening Denmark is a good idea then, cause she'll probably destroy Swedens potential power needed to create that baltic empire.
The rest of Swedens game should be to desperately hold on to her empire in face of many strong opponents like Russia. In the 18th century both Sweden and Denmark declined and Sweden lost her Baltic posessions. The Great Northern War of 1700-21 was needed to crush Swedens claim to be a global power for all time. So I don't think she needs to be tweaked down, only give her a more peaceful Ai in the beginning and then direct her towards her baltic posessions.
Cheers
It's a bad idea. Denmark will always lose without majors feeding him troops and money. It's even worse if someone is dumb enough (cough, cough) to give Sweden money. It's like setting fire to a tree to light a cigarette. Overkill to the max.Sven_vegas said:
What? I'm not bitter.
I've played several SP AGCEEP games as Norway recently, and I wonder if the problem might be the AI cheating on supply limits for minors. (It does still do this in 1.08b, right?) Denmark always declares war on Holstein fairly early; in four out of my five games, it got smashed because three minors can field a combined army three times the size of Denmark + Sweden. (Norway stays strictly out of that one unless Mecklenburg is left unprotected. ) I'm not sure what to do about this, though : Clearly, the Hanseatic League should not be able to overpower Denmark with sheer numbers, but on the other hand, you don't want all the other minors to be walkovers, either.
Another problem, I think, is that the Danish AI is way over-aggressive. War on the Hanseatic League I understand, but bloody Burgundy? Three out of my five games, Denmark DOWed Burgundy sometime between 1430 and 1460. Granted they are busy with the HYW, but still.
Finally, of course, the AI does not understand straits. Keeping control of the Sound is absolutely crucial to any Baltic war, especially for Denmark. Without control of the Sound, Denmark is essentially three or four allied one-province minors that do not even cheat supply limits. With control of the Sound, Jylland and Sjælland between them can raise huge armies at leisure and send them against Sweden; granted they'll get beaten to a pulp by the invincible and inexhaustible peasants, but at least that's historical.
And by the way, what's with raising 50k armies on Gotland and not moving them anywhere? Can the naval-invasion code from HOI be adapted to this? Or (OK, this is a desperation measure) perhaps another strait between Gotland and Småland? :rofl:
) I'm not sure what to do about this, though : Clearly, the Hanseatic League should not be able to overpower Denmark with sheer numbers, but on the other hand, you don't want all the other minors to be walkovers, either.Another problem, I think, is that the Danish AI is way over-aggressive. War on the Hanseatic League I understand, but bloody Burgundy? Three out of my five games, Denmark DOWed Burgundy sometime between 1430 and 1460. Granted they are busy with the HYW, but still.
Finally, of course, the AI does not understand straits. Keeping control of the Sound is absolutely crucial to any Baltic war, especially for Denmark. Without control of the Sound, Denmark is essentially three or four allied one-province minors that do not even cheat supply limits. With control of the Sound, Jylland and Sjælland between them can raise huge armies at leisure and send them against Sweden; granted they'll get beaten to a pulp by the invincible and inexhaustible peasants, but at least that's historical.
And by the way, what's with raising 50k armies on Gotland and not moving them anywhere? Can the naval-invasion code from HOI be adapted to this? Or (OK, this is a desperation measure) perhaps another strait between Gotland and Småland? :rofl:
magnusvest said:
Well, IMHO the game should reflect the power balance at game start, not try to overpower nations in order to make them able to expand historically, but highly unlikely. In my point of view, a mighty Denmark should be more likely to appear than a strong Sweden. Honestly, I believe that the likelihood for Denmark annexing all the Union of Kalmar, should be increased. The fact that they did not manage to subdue the Swedish aristocracy in real life, does not mean that it was impossible for them to do so.