Denmark and the Scandinavian AI

[Blutharsch121]

Another potentially pointless topic but again, I did not find a discussion with search topic and I only recently started using these forums even though I'm not new to the Paradox games.

I'm encountering the problem that almost in every single game I play, Denmark annexes Norway and Sweden, and doesn't form Scandinavia even if it could (the latter doesn't bother me, it's just weird). From what I recall of my vague memories of playing EU3 back when my previous computer still worked, this did not happen.
Often someone (mostly Moscow/Russia) later on forces Denmark to release Sweden and/or Norway, but I find the mechanic flawed, much like the new HRE mechanics discussed here.

Does this happen to others as well? One would think that our dear Swedes at Paradox would make the Danish stay on their peninsula.

 

[Wallain]

It is because the AI is set to never take that decision. All it really takes is changing a 0 to a 1 in the files, so it is easily modifiable. Personally I think it should be changed in the main game, I really see no reason why the AI should not form Scandinavia if it can. Seems a bit silly if I am entirely honest.

 

[Xara]

The AI is specifically told not to form Scandinavia in the decisions file
Dunno why.

 

[Blutharsch121]

The AI is specifically told not to form Scandinavia in the decisions file
Dunno why.

Well there are weirder things in the game, such as the option of forming Finland which is historically impossible, at least under that name.

Anyway, my focus on the topic was on Denmark annexing the other Scandinavian nations. I find it problematic, could be just me though.

 

[GamingHUD]

Well there are weirder things in the game, such as the option of forming Finland which is historically impossible, at least under that name.

Anyway, my focus on the topic was on Denmark annexing the other Scandinavian nations. I find it problematic, could be just me though.

If you leave them on their own, then chances are they will do just that. To do so though, they have to annex Holstein and maybe (I can't remember exactly atm) take another province to be big enough to integrate Norway, then after that they can integrate Sweden.

Should Denmark suffer a disastrous defeat (that is to say their prestige gets wrecked at war) then the possibility of Sweden and Norway breaking free arises. Forcing them to set Holstein free also helps keep them in check.

 

[Xara]

I have seen just about every configuration in Scandinavia apart from Norway ever winning.

Denmark sometimes annexes both. Denmark sometimes annexes Norway, but Sweden breaks free. Denmark sometimes inherits both. Denmark is frequently ravaged by religious rebels and nationalists at the same time, resulting in newly-freed Norway and Sweden of strange make-ups. I have seen Denmark get blown up and end up owning only Iceland. I have seen Sweden conquer everything and get wracked by rebels. I've had Russia inherit Denmark straight-out bypassing a PU. I've seen Palatinate leading a PU on all 3 of them.

 

[Blutharsch121]

I have seen just about every configuration in Scandinavia apart from Norway ever winning.

Denmark sometimes annexes both. Denmark sometimes annexes Norway, but Sweden breaks free. Denmark sometimes inherits both. Denmark is frequently ravaged by religious rebels and nationalists at the same time, resulting in newly-freed Norway and Sweden of strange make-ups. I have seen Denmark get blown up and end up owning only Iceland. I have seen Sweden conquer everything and get wracked by rebels. I've had Russia inherit Denmark straight-out bypassing a PU. I've seen Palatinate leading a PU on all 3 of them.

This happened all the time when the game was released, but after the recent patches I've seen Norway breaking free (only through rebellions) only a few times and Sweden maybe.. once?

 

[DanubianCossak]

The decision is disabled for AI for one reason specifically. And thats the way AI works.

If you make a decision, say, a country unification, that requires AI country controlling certain provinces (as most unification decisions do), this has influence on how the AI works. You see, AI is smart enough to read these decisions, check out what provinces it needs (by internal ID numbers) and add them to a list which is generates. In this list are the provinces it wants, bigger the value, more the AI will want it, and further the AI will go to get it.

In EU3 you could check this by typing "view_ai" in console and hovering the mouse pointer over AI country shield in the ledger thingy. IRRC it works the same in EU4, type the thing, then open the diplomatic thingy and check for these pieces of data there.

 

[Trickrs]

Scandinavia lost all the flavour events/decisions.

 

[Wallain]

The decision is disabled for AI for one reason specifically. And thats the way AI works.

If you make a decision, say, a country unification, that requires AI country controlling certain provinces (as most unification decisions do), this has influence on how the AI works. You see, AI is smart enough to read these decisions, check out what provinces it needs (by internal ID numbers) and add them to a list which is generates. In this list are the provinces it wants, bigger the value, more the AI will want it, and further the AI will go to get it.

In EU3 you could check this by typing "view_ai" in console and hovering the mouse pointer over AI country shield in the ledger thingy. IRRC it works the same in EU4, type the thing, then open the diplomatic thingy and check for these pieces of data there.

Wouldn't that be a good thing for Scandinavia though? Denmark and Sweden fighting each other constantly is kind of the theme of this era in that region.

 

[DanubianCossak]

Wouldn't that be a good thing for Scandinavia though? Denmark and Sweden fighting each other constantly is kind of the theme of this era in that region.

There are 2 types of conquest in these games. "Natural" conquest and event/decision/otherwise scripted conquest. IMO EU4 is built around "natural" conquest philosophy, which means that relations between countries will depend on their political and strategic situation (it comes from whats happening on the map), opposed to country A hates country B because we set up like that in history files.

My guess is that Paradox disabled this decision in order to discourage the AI from intentionally pursing it with the idea of forming Scandinavia (which is what the AI would be doing if enabled in a right way), and instead focus on more "natural" expansion, meaning AI will analyze its current situation and expand where it deems it can expand, instead of focusing on a narrow number of goals. In practical terms Sweden will still be at Norway's and Denmark's throats, because that is its natural area of expansion. It just wont primarily target these countries (well mostly), instead it will do so based on other parameters, like alliances, coalitions, its enemies, its rivals, weakness of its neighbors etc etc etc etc.

 

[hitchens]

Its pretty daft that the AI doesnt form Scandinavia when a faction actually wins the fight for Scandinavia.

 

[Wallain]

There are 2 types of conquest in these games. "Natural" conquest and event/decision/otherwise scripted conquest. IMO EU4 is built around "natural" conquest philosophy, which means that relations between countries will depend on their political and strategic situation (it comes from whats happening on the map), opposed to country A hates country B because we set up like that in history files.

My guess is that Paradox disabled this decision in order to discourage the AI from intentionally pursing it with the idea of forming Scandinavia (which is what the AI would be doing if enabled in a right way), and instead focus on more "natural" expansion, meaning AI will analyze its current situation and expand where it deems it can expand, instead of focusing on a narrow number of goals. In practical terms Sweden will still be at Norway's and Denmark's throats, because that is its natural area of expansion. It just wont primarily target these countries (well mostly), instead it will do so based on other parameters, like alliances, coalitions, its enemies, its rivals, weakness of its neighbors etc etc etc etc.

I can definitely see it from that angle. I do however still believe that the AI should without a shadow of a doubt make Scandinavia if it can. Perhaps the best solution is to simply make something separate from ai_will_do that does either of the following:

1. Changes how the AI approaches the decision (will it actively pursue getting it enacted or not?)
2. Changes if the AI will enact it if it can without changing whether or not the AI will pursue it

So you can make the AI enact if it is able to, but not pursue it with furiously.

Although I have to note that the reconquest of Sweden was among the top priorities for the Danish monarchs for a while in this era.

 

[DanubianCossak]

I can definitely see it from that angle. I do however still believe that the AI should without a shadow of a doubt make Scandinavia if it can. Perhaps the best solution is to simply make something separate from ai_will_do that does either of the following:

1. Changes how the AI approaches the decision (will it actively pursue getting it enacted or not?)
2. Changes if the AI will enact it if it can without changing whether or not the AI will pursue it

So you can make the AI enact if it is able to, but not pursue it with furiously.

Although I have to note that the reconquest of Sweden was among the top priorities for the Danish monarchs for a while in this era.

I dont know. Dont have actual opinion on this matter, or rather its mixed. I dont like ahistoric countries (at least Germany and Italy happened at some point), but i also dont know how to feel about AI purposely being disallowed from doing it, since its already there.

I do however rather like the general design philosophy. I think Paradox devs have shown an extraordinary level of vision and skill and find the whole political and strategic layers influencing diplomacy simply amazing. I would prefer this over scripted behavior every time.

Edit:

We can also ask Wiz if AI will ignore the decision goals, but still enact decision itself if conditions are met, if this line: " ai_importance = 0 " is added to decision. If this works like so, then it might be possible to get what you want.

 

[Novacat]

Scandinavia lost all the flavour events/decisions.

This. Given, its not as disasterous as Norway/Denmark as your flavor events are generally shit, but considering how rediculosly overpowered Sweden's flavors events are, you would be stupid to tag-switch.

 

[Wallain]

I dont know. Dont have actual opinion on this matter, or rather its mixed. I dont like ahistoric countries (at least Germany and Italy happened at some point), but i also dont know how to feel about AI purposely being disallowed from doing it, since its already there.

I do however rather like the general design philosophy. I think Paradox devs have shown an extraordinary level of vision and skill and find the whole political and strategic layers influencing diplomacy simply amazing. I would prefer this over scripted behavior every time.

Edit:

We can also ask Wiz if AI will ignore the decision goals, but still enact decision itself if conditions are met, if this line: " ai_importance = 0 " is added to decision. If this works like so, then it might be possible to get what you want.

Well, we already kind of had the groundwork for Scandinavia, if the Kalmar Union had held together it is likely that Scandinavia would exist today. In any case I think it is silly from a gameplay perspective that the AI does not form Scandinavia and it kind of annoys my immersion as well. If Denmark or Sweden holds all of Scandinavia the tag change should happen just like it does with Muscovy.

That said, the scenario you presented in your previous comment is not too preferable either. I do think we should hope for a comment from Wiz. If this could be done without upsetting how the AI acts to a major degree, then that is how it should be done in my opinion.