Denmark and Exploration

[jdavis86]

Knocking out some Denmark achievements finally, and am not sure when or if to fit in exploration. Diplo idea groups seem extra competitive.

Influence is basically required in the first 3, as is defensive. You could take explo as a 3rd -- but Denmark really benefits from economic or religious (if you're diving into Orthodox lands). In terms of a 4th pick, by then you're in the age of reformation and humanism becomes really appealing. You'll have a big empire stretching from Scotland or England to parts of Germany and Russia.

So when the heck does one take exploration?

 

[Vulkandrache]

In place of Defensive?
You can win wars without it, you cannot explore without Exploration.

 

[mhaell42]

You cannot colonize with Danemark early unless you get a lucky integration of norway. Don't forget that this new world trade only benefit you if you can collect in the english channel trade node.
That give you the timing to get it. When you can profit from it

 

[makaramus]

infilation > quality > Exploration > expansion

good job now you are colonizing canada

You cannot colonize with Danemark early unless you get a lucky integration of norway. Don't forget that this new world trade only benefit you if you can collect in the english channel trade node.
That give you the timing to get it. When you can profit from it

wrong . you can send trade to north sea so from north sea you can send trade from america to lübeck trade node

 

[mhaell42]

infilation > quality > Exploration > expansion

good job now you are colonizing canada


wrong . you can send trade to north sea so from north sea you can send trade from america to lübeck trade node

Most of it would then be stolen by HRE minor. Unless you blob hard colonisation is barely profitable as Denmark. In wich case just stole the colonies that England/GB has done for you

 

[Incompetent]

If you're achievement-hunting as Denmark, presumably you'll kill England for the Danelaw achievement. With Great Britain, Ireland and Scandinavia in your hands, colonization makes a lot of sense. There's no rush though - if you're slow to reach the New World, you can just as well conquer other countries' CNs.

You don't need Influence unless you plan to play an ongoing subject-heavy game. (I mean it's a decent pick still, but not an absolute must.) Annex Holstein, integrate Norway, integrate Sweden, job done. Influence saves you a few points, but not enough to justify a whole idea group.

 

[jdavis86]

Hmm interesting I always assumed it would be too difficult to deal with Sweden without the extra dip rep.

 

[Incompetent]

Hmm interesting I always assumed it would be too difficult to deal with Sweden without the extra dip rep.

You do need to keep an eye on their Liberty Desire and make sure it never goes above 50%, but these days there are lots of ways to bribe a subject to reduce LD. For PUs especially, Support Loyalists is a very cost-effective option (-20% LD for 10% of their income; it's calculated every month, so turn it on and off as needed). You won't want to have to keep bribing your subject all game of course (unless it's a highly lucrative Colonial Nation), but the burden of doing so for the relatively short time that Sweden will be dangerous to you is not that great.

Diprep is only a minor factor in LD, -3 per point. You get more benefit in LD terms from simply bulking yourself up and maintaining good opinion. As far as you can, make sure Sweden takes the brunt of any early wars so your army stays larger than theirs.

One last thing to watch out for is an event called The Scandinavian Constitution. The 'yes' option gives +1 stab and 100 of each kind of mana but makes Sweden a historical rival (a permanent +50% LD along with a big hit to opinion), which is dangerous unless you know what you're doing. Just say 'no' and it should be easy to keep Sweden loyal indefinitely.

 

[Vokasak]

I'm currently in the middle of a coop denmark campaign teaching my friend to play (He's new), and he chose Denmark. I've mostly been letting him make the decisions like which idea groups to pick, all I'm doing is explaining what things are and helping navigate the interface. Our ideas as of right now are Trade -> Economic -> Exploration -> Quality. Yeah I know economic is a bit redundant probably. But it's literally his first game.

Not having any military ideas until the 4th group was kind of rough, but we've been getting by on having pretty strong allies (France + Poland) and Sweden's OP ideas during our very few wars. Trade has been helpful since we snatched the Lubeck and Hamburg provinces and have a very good grip on Baltic and North Sea trade. Exploration 3rd lined up with when we integrated Norway, but I have no doubt that someone on this forum can get them integrated in time for getting it 2nd (Or, like our plan B, take a piece of Scotland to use as a staging area). If colonization is important to you, that might be the way to go. We anticipated getting a lot of competition since we were so late, but the only real colonizer in our campaign is Great Britain since Iberia is a bit of a mess (Iberian wedding fired, then castile lost the PU somehow and the entire peninsula has been a tug of war ever since). We're probably going to skip religious and humanist since we had a super smooth and powerful reformation (Pretty much the whole HRE except for Austria is protestant or reformed, and it's spread as far as PLC and Tuscany).

Ideas are always variable depending on your situation. If we didn't have an opening to take two very good and expensive HRE provinces back to back without a coalition, Trade ideas might not have been worth it. If Spain had gotten it's shit together, we would have been under more pressure to take Exploration earlier. If our reformation didn't go as buttery-smooth as it had, we would have been under an increased pressure to take Religious or Humanist. And you're always trading one thing for another. My friend likes being very financially secure, so Trade was a good choice for him and we've had basically infinite money since 1500, even though it made our diplo tech lag behind and we had a few scares with Sweden's liberty desire because of it. If instead we were super concerned with keeping our junior partners maximally happy and didn't mind the occasional loan, we would have taken influence over trade. There's no set order, except don't take exploration first, I guess

tl;dr it varies. Just this week I got it 3rd and things are going fine. You can make an argument for getting it earlier (second, definitely not first) if colonization is important to you. You can make an argument for not getting it at all if Russia is weak and ripe for the taking. Adjust your idea picks to the situation on the ground, and whatever your medium and long term goals are.

 

[jdavis86]

They do seem a jack of all trades -- various ways you can play them. You can get into HRE politics very easily and dominate Germany, especially if you get PU's on Palatinate or Bavaria.

No military ideas really is an issue when your midgame competition are countries like Commonwealth or Brandenburg/Prussia. In my current game I was able to deal with Poland early, but not Brandenburg. Fortunately the religious war absolutely wrecked Germany and Denmark was able to take great advantage.

 

[Robert de Bruce]

You don't need Influence unless you plan to play an ongoing subject-heavy game. (I mean it's a decent pick still, but not an absolute must.) Annex Holstein, integrate Norway, integrate Sweden, job done. Influence saves you a few points, but not enough to justify a whole idea group.

There are a lot of options for further vassals with Denmark. PU Bavaria (start same dynasty, happens even if you don't force it), diplovassalize HRE minors, feed them with threaten war. Vasallize Scotland/Irish minor or some russian minors/Novgorod or feed Russia to Livonian order vasall for better conversion. Lithuania and Poland can also be split in many small countries. Especially for HRE this expansion path is the most efficient.

 

[Incompetent]

There are a lot of options for further vassals with Denmark. PU Bavaria (start same dynasty, happens even if you don't force it), diplovassalize HRE minors, feed them with threaten war. Vasallize Scotland/Irish minor or some russian minors/Novgorod or feed Russia to Livonian order vasall for better conversion. Lithuania and Poland can also be split in many small countries. Especially for HRE this expansion path is the most efficient.

That's why I say Influence is a decent pick. It makes sense to go down this path, but it's not obligatory.