Democracy's Last Legs: A US - UK DAIM AAR

[unmerged(89475)]

Joe German is either dead or in the Army;

Not possible. I remind you that while the army is gonna suck up large amounts of manpower, there are men who cannot be slapped into uniform and sent out to fight.

Skilled laborers for example, the factories must be kept going and they are the only ones who can. The professors, the doctors, the firemen, weapon designers, and various techs. While a good amount of the grunt assemby work can be done by women at this point and time there isn't a large pool of women engineers and skilled industrial laborers to take over if you draft the guys. Rather short sighted I agree but there you go.

Then there will be men who are simply phyiscally unfit for combat or military work. Those missing limbs, or the blind or so on.

So while a large chunk of the young men (18 to 25 at first, expanding to 15 to 30 likely near the end) were carrying rifles, the majority of their elders and more of their fellows then you think weren't.

As for Frigidmagi, I got Emu'd. I didn't see your post when I made it (my last one). So I apologize for not getting it then.

No worries, it's a busy thread right? Things fly by fast.

So, maybe the new Soviet Union will be a massive bloc containing all of these new states (India, China, Korea)?

That's how I see it honestly, the Soviets had to have launched this war of conquest to get at the manpower, resources and factories of those areas. I can't see how they can control them without direct incorporation.

Course in 20 years that may mean the USSR is in blood, spirit and all else a Asian power with no real connection at all to Europe as many of the next generation's leaders will have to come from China and India.

 

[VILenin]

While practically the rump Soviet Union could never control the rest of Asia I say leave it as is in-game and maybe even expand their cores a little (Manchuria and Mongolia maybe?) to represent the shifting dynamic to that of an Asian power plus settlement of Russian refugees. I don't think you should mod Mao into their minister or leader files, however, as he and the Soviets didn't exactly see eye to eye. Beria would be as likely to shoot him as anything else, plus he would be a potentially dangerous rallying figure to the Chinese. Better to create some lackey that's entirely beholden to you.

Those US loses are really frightening. When you consider that many of those are from service-age men there's going to be quite a demographic crunch. Something like the opposite of the baby boom or OTL, where the population declines in the post-war as there aren't enough young men to start families.

 

[herm]

I am also very disappointed, nobody caught the error in my last update.

Well, how about I point out an error in this update then?

The British, plagued by supply and moral problems, outnumber the Australian forces but lack the offensive power to breakthrough

Did we ever get that map of South America?

 

[unmerged(140582)]

Yeah, the Chinese and Russians didn't get along too well in our timeline, I don't think that it will play out much better now that Soviet Russia is in a really desperate situation. The Russians are very soon going to be the minority in their own superstate, but their leaders at least were power-hungry and probably would manage to hang on for a while, at least as long as most of the army is still staffed by Russians.

The China and India of 1950 aren't really industrialized in any way. The Russian Ural region is still going to be their economically most important region. However, as soon a the war is concluded, the Soviets may start a determined effort to change that.

And I think you're dreaming if you say that the Germans could move any large part of their population out of Germany proper. The logistics just aren't there. The rails and buses will be tied up moving supplies and soldiers. Keep in mind literally millions of troops are moving at this point, every car that isn't full of fuel or food to keep them moving is slowing them down. Private car ownership isn't widespread enough to move and you can forget airlift, and that's even assuming there's enough fuel in Germany to fuel over 90 armored divisions and a large amount of privately owned motor vehicles.

So basically if Joe German wants to flee he had better get his walking shoes on.

You mean...Joe German will be forced to do exactly the same as a dozen millions of Germans had also to do in our timeline when fleeing from Eastern Europe?
Only someone from our western consumer society could insist on having to have a car or train ticket to move about when in fact fleeing for his very life.
The Nazi government issued a evacuation warning and that was all there was, no further help was given and still 12 million people managed to move westwards.

I don't dispute the fact that this flight would have been exhausting and very likely deadly for many (I think Germany in fact really lost about 20% of its pre-war population in the former German easter territories and former Austria-Hungary during the war). What didn't happen, however, is that all civilians bunkered down in their homes in a Stalingrad-like scenario instead of fleeing.

Which bluntly means he's gonna get overtaken. He's gonna be low on food. He's gonna be out in the open. In winter.

Oh please, don't overdo it. The battle for Germany lasted for 4 years. The Allies weren't fast enough to overtake anything but a corpse. Neither were there any advances during the winter in lvl10-fortified Germany.

Allies take first German city - June 1948 - summer
Kassel and Munster taken - November 1948 - autumn
New Advances in the North - June 1949 - summer
Renewed attacks in central Germany - March 1950 - spring
Allies advance in central Germany - April 1951 - spring
Allies fight for Baltic sea coast - September 1951 - autumn
Allied armies reach Czechoslovakia and Austria - November 1951 - autumn
Berlin taken - farthest Allied advance - June 1952 - summer

 

[{LD}Firestorm]

Good catch

I cannot find a blank-white map of HoI 2 for Africa. There used to be one, and it was on my old pc, but the links for it seem to have become inactive. TRP has one, as they used to define their Africa in The Channel Pact, so I might ask them.

Something like the opposite of the baby boom or OTL, where the population declines in the post-war as there aren't enough young men to start families.

Could be a possible problem if the future. And technically war still has not finished for the US, so losses could be even higher.

Course in 20 years that may mean the USSR is in blood, spirit and all else a Asian power with no real connection at all to Europe as many of the next generation's leaders will have to come from China and India.

I agree, that in 20 - 30 years the USSR will be more Asia-focused and less European focused, unless they manage to reclaim Russia somehow (doubtful).

Which means I am likely going to have to somehow get support to Japan and Australia if I wish to have any means of having a foothold in Asia.

Bloody CSA won't let me do that yet, and the longer that war lasts the bigger the Soviet advantage becomes. I will send my fleet to Japan sometime soon to dissuade the war from continuing to my former ally...or something along those lines. In game terms, ally Japan, while peace event with the Soviets I think. But that will happen sometime down the road when I am not so vulnerable.

Edit: Emu'd two days in a row. Dáin, I will respond to yours shortly.

I do agree that the Germans suffered hardships, and based on Hitler's orders in world war 2 for nobody to be evacuated from the Eastern Territories (until it was too late) caused alot more civilian losses on the OTL then would have been had they been allowed to evacuate. In my time line, Hitler would have probably done the same thing, with the civilians fleeing only at the very end. The bulk of German casualties is from the war and nukes, not civilians caught in war zones (on my timeline).


Unrelated (ish) and meant for how I describe future stuff in the AAR:
A question I pose is: How badly devastated would Western Germany and France be after the war? I tend to visualize Western Germany as sort of like WW1's worst scenes.

And to keep track of votes for Nat. China defeated on the mainland...(I may or may not put them on Taiwan, don't know yet.)

Raaritsgozilla -> Febuary 15th 1955.
Dáin -> May 15th, 1955
Mattabesta -> August 1st, 1955
Ciryandor -> September 22 1955
Feuersturm (me) -> October 20th, 1955
Stuntdawg5 -> January 22nd, 1956

 

[unmerged(140338)]

alright i'm throwing my hat into the downfall of china ring saying.... november 19th 1955

 

[unmerged(95076)]

Most of the Western major cities are probably akin to Stalingrad.

 

[Calad]

Im propably first to say this phrase: "this is no peace, this is 20 year armistice". Current world has propably worst case-scenario. Globe is divided by Germany and Asian-Soviets. If USA falls America will be messy divided continent but it CSA falls USA will propably rally American continent and some other democratic nations.

But WW3 is doomed to happend. Settings are much worst than in -39. All nations are openly hostile against each other. Germany and allied has nukes and soon Soviets will also have them so if all parties arent involved then one who is left outside will win WW3. Pretty dystopic world eh?

 

[unmerged(83789)]

Good mood music for the Soviet invasion of China:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbLEVEGQ0Ow

 

[{LD}Firestorm]

Great idea, I have that on my PC and overlooked it.


For those who don't know, I'm working on a video for the AAR.

 

[unmerged(140582)]

Unrelated (ish) and meant for how I describe future stuff in the AAR:
A question I pose is: How badly devastated would Western Germany and France be after the war? I tend to visualize Western Germany as sort of like WW1's worst scenes.

Hm, it's really difficult to judge how Western Europe would look after this. WW2-Blitzkrieg warfare wasn't all that destructive to the countryside and cities when one side had gained an advantage or managed to rout their enemies, but on the other hand collateral damage was even worse than 20 years earlier if a frontline remained contested for a while (or when you figure in strategic bombing, which however wasn't really practiced in this timeline apart from nukes). A big question is also whether or not the Allies followed a scorched-earth policy when they finally retreated and if they also applied it to the territory of former allied countries like Spain and France.

I guess you can take a look at how the eastern front looked in our timeline, and then double that generously. Ironically, Russia and all of Eastern Europe might be much better of in your dystopia, since the Soviet Union folded quickly to the German advance.

So I guess most parts of France, Norway, Benelux, southern Italy and Spain got off relatively lightly with perhaps most cities and farms intact, while Germany (west of the Oder), Sweden and northern Italy look like the worst areas of Flandern 1918 and Stalingrad 1941 combined. At least around the important strategic objectives. Most provinces changed hands multiple times after all, while being defended and under attack from supersized army stacks.

I found this estimation on the wiki page for the eastern front:

Much of the combat took place in or close by populated areas, and the actions of both sides contributed to massive loss of civilian life as well as a tremendous material damage. According to a summary, presented by Lieutenant General Roman Rudenko at the International Military Tribunal in Nuremberg, the property damage in the Soviet Union inflicted by the Axis invasion was estimated to a value of 679 billion rubles. The largest number of civilian deaths in a single city was 1.2 million citizens dead during the Siege of Leningrad. The combined damage consisted of complete or partial destruction of 1,710 cities and towns, 70,000 villages/hamlets, 2,508 church buildings, 31,850 industrial establishments, 40,000 miles of railroad, 4100 railroad stations, 40,000 hospitals, 84,000 schools, and 43,000 public libraries. Seven million horses, and 17 million sheep and goats were also slaughtered or driven off.[11] Wild fauna were also affected. Wolves and foxes fleeing westward from the killing zone, as the Russian army advanced 1943-45, were responsible for a rabies epidemic which spread slowly westwards, reaching the Channel coast in 1968

 

[VILenin]

Forgot to make my prediction on the fall of China: August 29, 1955.

 

[{LD}Firestorm]

CBC World News – June 9th, 1955

June 9th, 1955

CBC World News

"The world today. The Canadian Broadcasting Corporation now presents a summary of the all the important world news today. Reports from CBC correspondents by trans-America short wave radio, and the latest developments as received by the Canada's news room here in Ottawa. Tonight we will be reporting on the latest military events from the United States and abroad via our correspondents in Chicago."

"Good evening Canada, this is your host Tommy Forever speaking. Today the Confederate States of America has grabbed headlines with their latest offensive along the east coast."

"The United States Army has been dealt successive defeats at the hands of the Confederate army as they retreat along the eastern coast towards Boston. In the latest offensive, which started shortly after the collapse of the California separatist state, has been aimed to deal the US devastating blows to their production capabilities. From the Atlantic Ocean to Chicago, US armies quickly found themselves retreating north. From the northern shores of Lake Erie, spectators watched as the evening horizon lit up with the flashes of artillery, accompanied by the sounds echoing across the lake. It was here that some of the larger engagements were fought as the US army retreated towards New England. "

"Currently, the front reaches as far east as Boston, where 180,000 US soldiers are trapped along the Atlantic Coast. American super-heavy battleships stationed offshore could be seen pounding Confederate positions, with considerable effect. The Confederate attack was brought to a standstill just outside the suburbs of Boston. Their hope destroying the 12 divisions trapped in New England faded as they more a organized defense. Not to be discouraged, their attention turned towards Chicago, the current US capital. Within a week, US troops here were also forced to retreat into the city, staving off defeat as concentrated air power broke up each thrust consecutively. They managed to surround the southern and western flanks of the city, but thrusts made to cut them off in the north proved to be just out of reach. With the offensive power of the Confederate army losing steam, all eyes look towards the US to make its next move."

"In Australia, a divisions of German mechanized infantry was deployed to the front in a move aimed to help defeat the Australian forces. Currently, Axis forces have been unable to make significant gains in Australia due to significant backing from the United States. Though highly protested, Axis states continue to support the Confederate government, and thus are not in a solid position to make any significant threats to end the aid. Such a move would be seen as hostile by the public, which is still war weary from the end of the second World War."

**Sorry, only two screens today. CSA is pushing damn hard, but they have reached their limits. They cannot take Boston or Chicago, and I am advancing now from the west.**

 

[unmerged(88283)]

Push 'em all the way to Florida! Let 'em drown in the swamps!

 

[General_Hoth]

You are in deeeeeeeepppppppp trouble

 

[Roman_legion]

Aouch, atleast its not as bad as it was a few months ago.

One question tough: How many troops do you currently have in the US mainland?

 

[Mico94]

i say 12.12.1955 is when china will fall

 

[{LD}Firestorm]

Aouch, atleast its not as bad as it was a few months ago.

One question tough: How many troops do you currently have in the US mainland?

If I remember correctly, about 50. The Confederates have about 45, but much more armor and mot/mech.

But now that they cannot seem to push any further, I think I might be able to launch a counter-offensive of my own.

 

[Viden]

This is the turning point of the SACW. If New England and Chicago fall, US are doomed. But if you can hold the position in the north, your troops in middle states can save the day.

 

[VILenin]

That was close. I guess while you were pushing forces west into California the CSA was massing for their strike north. Good thing they seem to have run out of steam. Still, losing New York, Pennsylvania, Ohio and Indiana (and all the IC that goes with it) is a serious pain. Hope you can roll them up from the west and end the war by the end of the year.