Democracy's Last Legs: A US - UK DAIM AAR

[{LD}Firestorm]

I have rough numbers of how many people each country lost, and I can certainly tell you Germany does not have enough to control that vast space.

I will be posting them eventually, but Germany lost about 20% of its 1939 population in the war, a staggering figure for a country that now has lots of area to control. Over the 5-6 years that western Europe was subject to ruthless battles that left much of the area in ruins, much of the German population settled in the Ukraine. Many have nothing to come back to. Many would be lucky to find anything remaining of their old lives at all. Some cities saw so much carnage that it made Stalingrad look like a walk in the park.

Germany does not have the manpower to dominate the entire continent and survive politically and economically. This is also why they have set up friendly government and have a much softer occupational policy.

As for when China will fall...

Raaritsgozilla -> Febuary 15th 1955.
Dáin -> May 15th, 1955
Mattabesta -> August 1st, 1955
Ciryandor -> September 22 1955
Feuersturm (me) -> October 20th, 1955
Stuntdawg5 -> January 22nd, 1956

As for Africa, now that peace will be achieved....(looks for blank map of Africa)
I leave that to my awesome readers to help decide


Oh, and regarding Elvis, I have managed to find some combat records for Presley. Sadly, as of yet I am unable to find a certificate of death for him, but it is known in which mission he went missing.

Contrary to common belief, he was serving in the US airforce at the time, and was lost over the skies near Genoa. He was 18 at the time of his death.

===========

China will not fall. And you must take the heartland again! for the US of A!! For Memphis!!! FOR ELVIS!!!!

well considering the current time line Elvis would most likely have died somewhere in Germany .

You two made my day.

 

[Ciryandor]

WHAT. They're now sending up Sergeants in aircraft?

 

[{LD}Firestorm]

Technical Sergeant is what that is abbreviated for.

 

[unmerged(89475)]

I will be posting them eventually, but Germany lost about 20% of its 1939 population in the war, a staggering figure for a country that now has lots of area to control. Over the 5-6 years that western Europe was subject to ruthless battles that left much of the area in ruins, much of the German population settled in the Ukraine.

And I remember folks calling me nuts for thinking Germany would lose at least 30% of it's population in this timeline.

As for the discussion, Switzerland is a loyal member of the Axis, why would they divide it? And folks remember Russia is buffer state between Axis Europa and Soviet Asia. The Germans at this point and time cannot man or control that border themselves so it's better to set up the native populace to do it if possible.

As for Asia. The Soviets are holding a rump state of the most under developed parts of the old USSR, if they release China and India they cannot hope to control such states. Beria will keep an imperial level of control in a death grip that only a KGB thug like him could maintain (look whatever your opinion of the average KGB guy, Beria is well documented to be a bastard and a thug okay?). The manpower of India and China is gonna be turned to glare at Axis Europa and rebuild Soviet industry in Central Asia and Siberia. My bet is that the USSR will simply directly incorporate them as new Soviet Republics.

I'm gonna go father and say if Asia isn't pried from Communist domination then WWIII is unavoidable. The USSR has had it's heartland torn away and been subjected to a trauma deeper then the one Germany suffered in WWI.

Also bluntly speaking Fascist and Communist ideologies will drive both sides to violent confrontation.

 

[{LD}Firestorm]

Yeah, I am not sure how to deal with the Soviets. Should I make China and India puppet states and use an alliance to symbolize a new Soviet republic? Or leave them occupied as it is?

Maybe have the Soviets begin a industrialization program in Siberia? Since they still have a large military, all those men could be put to good work.

@Frigidmagi: Nice to see you again! I agree, WW3 looks unavoidable at this point. The US will look to seek its former glory, the Soviets will look to retake their lost land, and the Germans look to keep safe their new empire.

But this is still years down the road. Russia will need time, and so will I.

 

[Viden]

China and India should be Soviet puppets and in the Comintern. Just as East Europe in OTL.

 

[unmerged(140582)]

And I remember folks calling me nuts for thinking Germany would lose at least 30% of it's population in this timeline.

And I still think even 20% civilian deaths is extremely high, what with Germans not staying put in the combat zone and nonexistent Allied air superiority. Oh, well, it is not my AAR.

Yeah, I am not sure how to deal with the Soviets. Should I make China and India puppet states and use an alliance to symbolize a new Soviet republic? Or leave them occupied as it is?

It's difficult to predict how anybody would do anything in such a dystopian scenario. I think the RL-Cold War practice of seeking to establish puppet states may still be followed, but who knows?

Maybe have the Soviets begin a industrialization program in Siberia? Since they still have a large military, all those men could be put to good work.

Definitively. The question is how effective their industrialization will be now that most of the population as well as the economyis lost to European Russia. Ambitious programs always have the risk of failure.

 

[General_Hoth]

I think that the Soviet are not in a position to bargain...I really think that Stalin, Mao and any other would have prefered an unified USSR...Give core on CHina and Indochina to USSR and put MAO as chief of government.

 

[{LD}Firestorm]

And I still think even 20% civilian deaths is extremely high, what with Germans not staying put in the combat zone and nonexistent Allied air superiority. Oh, well, it is not my AAR.

Not 20% civilian, this is the total losses for the nation. Though, I forgot to factor in Austria to that population total.

The loses include from nuclear attack, soldiers over the entire course of the war, and civilians caught in the fray (which I put as a reduced number).

I have a way of calculating the approximate losses for each nation soldier wise, and I will put that calculation up when I do my next update.

It just requires me to load up every nation I want to have a record for, which is a time consuming process.

I potentially see a three-way cold war in this scenario.

@Hoth: You mean form the entire mass the Soviet Union occupies under one solid government? Would Beria accept such a thing? Stalin is dead, as far as we know, since Bitter Peace occured to the Soviet Union. If we go along the thought of having a Soviet Union that controlls Siberia - China - Indochina, maybe have a puppet India as their ally?

 

[General_Hoth]

It depend on the local leadership too. We could imagine Mao or Ho Chi Minh wanting to join the USSR and having a role to play in the government. A puppet india alongside it would be interessting.

 

[Akaki]

Keep in mind that entire european Russia is now under german influence. This Soviet Union is not the one we know from history books - it's an asian USSR - so I think you should add some chinese and indian (?) commie leaders to USSR (Mao as foreign minister?) and decrese partisans in China and other occupied territories. Then SU, after some industrial and military buildup would turn against Germany .

 

[{LD}Firestorm]

Actually, he does have a good point. The Soviet Union ceased being a European power when bitter peace was signed in late 1943. That was about 11 years ago.

Perhaps some adjustments to the Soviet Union's leaders should be made, to incorporate Mao.

I am thinking India should be released as a Soviet puppet state. Controlling Siberia - China - Indochina - India - Korea (and possibly Japan if they go that far) would be alot of territory to hold on to.

 

[unmerged(23957)]

I think the idea of an communist Asian superstate comprising what's left of the Soviet Union, India, China, Korea, and Indochina would be interesting. It would cease being the Soviet Union but instead be something else....like East Asia from 1984. The Soviets need the population from China and India to truly regain control of Eastern Europe. Making Chinese and Indian puppets is so....cliche.

Don't forget India has no dissent. Also, if you wanted to make a real monster, you could make all occupied territory cores...

 

[Ciryandor]

Well, was Elvis there a bomber crew member? Tech Sergeants don't fly aircraft, they typically crew them.

 

[Raaritsgozilla]

Doesnt it say radio operator on that sheet somewhere?

 

[unmerged(89475)]

And I still think even 20% civilian deaths is extremely high, what with Germans not staying put in the combat zone and nonexistent Allied air superiority. Oh, well, it is not my AAR.

And I think you're dreaming if you say that the Germans could move any large part of their population out of Germany proper. The logistics just aren't there. The rails and buses will be tied up moving supplies and soldiers. Keep in mind literally millions of troops are moving at this point, every car that isn't full of fuel or food to keep them moving is slowing them down. Private car ownership isn't widespread enough to move and you can forget airlift, and that's even assuming there's enough fuel in Germany to fuel over 90 armored divisions and a large amount of privately owned motor vehicles.

So basically if Joe German wants to flee he had better get his walking shoes on. Which bluntly means he's gonna get overtaken. He's gonna be low on food. He's gonna be out in the open. In winter. Most of the old and very young in those condinations will die. Factor in the lack of sanition due to the ruination of war and sickness will run loose. Add battlefield deaths. When you factor all that in 30% is pretty damn low.

The good news for Germany is that the young (16 to 30 yrs) are the most likely to be left alive so while their population is at an all time low, the military age part of that population is at a high. That said Greater Germany is still gonna be strapped for manpower.


Firestorm: I was thinking as just one mass Occupation to. While puppeting seems a good idea, I honestly question whether a Russia lacking most of it's population and industry can really control India and China for very long before it becomes a tail wagging the dog kind of relationship.

I mean let's put it this way, even with all the death and destruction in China (foregin armies have marched over it fighting for every inch what? 3 times now in the last 15 years?) There is still gonna be something like 3 to 4 Chinese per Russian and higher levels of industrialization then in Siberia. No crash program is gonna change that.

This is a completely different situation from hundreds of millions of Russians dominating the much smaller and poorer nations of East Europe after WWII.

 

[{LD}Firestorm]

Yes it does. He was a radio operator, killed over Genoa in the late stages of the war as the Allies were forced towards Spain. He mission was to attack Axis troops near the city, but he never returned.

 

[Dinglehoff]

So basically if Joe German wants to flee he had better get his walking shoes on. Which bluntly means he's gonna get overtaken. He's gonna be low on food. He's gonna be out in the open. In winter. Most of the old and very young in those condinations will die. Factor in the lack of sanition due to the ruination of war and sickness will run loose. Add battlefield deaths. When you factor all that in 30% is pretty damn low.

Joe German is either dead or in the Army; so if the government wants them to settle down in the east, they can be stationed and transported to the east.

Yes it does. He was a radio operator, killed over Genoa in the late stages of the war as the Allies were forced towards Spain. He mission was to attack Axis troops near the city, but he never returned.

Everybody knows that if the audience sees no body, death isn't permanent. Like Arthur, the King must return!

 

[{LD}Firestorm]

Fair enough, Elvis's death records will show up when I get around to creating them too

As for Frigidmagi, I got Emu'd. I didn't see your post when I made it (my last one). So I apologize for not getting it then.

So, maybe the new Soviet Union will be a massive bloc containing all of these new states (India, China, Korea)?

Next report I will probably touch base on reconstruction efforts in western Europe.

The nation with the most losses percentile wise was Luxembourg, which was quite literally flattened several times during my advance into Germany. It was the scene of some of the heaviest armored combat, which if I recall was 20 tank divisions vs 20 tank divisions or so, not including supporting infantry. They lost 31% of their population, as it is only direct military involvement for losses.

Britain seems to be suffering. Low food imports, large riots, disease, destroyed infrastructure, ruined cities, nuclear contamination, and poor living conditions. Most of their male population was killed in fighting or nuclear warfare. It would appear they are the worst off. They lost the second most in the war proportionally, losing just under 28% of their pre-war population.

Germany is next on that list, losing 23% of the 1937 population. With reasons Frigidmagi explained, as well as nuclear losses and food shortages during the war, this is a conservative number.

The United States comes next on that list, at 17% of their pre-war population killed. The nuclear attacks, combined with a massive war with Germany AND the Soviet Union, drained the US manpower pool white.

This is just for the nations I have done. Many others I have no calculated yet, such as Spain, Germany's allies, ect. The Soviet Union has mild losses up until 1953, at 10% of their 1937 population lost in combat. They might change because I have to do a 2-stage calculation for them, from 1936 -> Bitter Peace and from BP to 1953, so they will come up as 2 entries.

As Frigidmagi stated, if Joe Germany wanted to get anywhere he was walking, or taking a train if it was heading east to pick up supplies (if he is lucky). From Frankfurt to the Ukraine is a long way to walk, and is long even on horseback (assuming the horses were not pulled into the army to help with logistics and artillery movements)

 

[Ciryandor]

Alright, that explains it. He's a radio operator for a bomber. :rofl: Just I wonder, did he leave any recordings singing while on the set?

As for casualty rates, I'd estimate Europe as a whole to have suffered a demographic blow equal to the Black Death *25-33%*, US , Britain, China and Japan on 20-25%, and 15-20 percent for most other combatants.