Demesnes changed from CK I?

[Strompator]

My question will be hard to word, but I'll give it a shot.

I played CK I to death - just got CK II. If I recall correctly, the demesnes in CK I were whatever provinces directly held by the ruling lord and anything in those provinces were his holdings. CK II seems to have a demesne be any kind of holding from a barony, city, or a whole province. It seems odd because as ruler of Scotland in my initial game, my demesne includes a bunch of baronies that are in my vassal's provinces, and conversely, some of my vassal's demesne holdings eating provinces that I control such as the dutchy of Albany.

It was confusing when I first started and was messing with map modes. I couldn't understand how a vassal's demesne could include a province of mine, and mine of there's until I started digging into it last night. As I said, it seemed that in CK I it was pretty simple - when you clicked on the map for demesnes it showed the provinces you controlled only - you didn't control individual cities and such in someone elses demesne provinces. I would fire up CK I to check it out but am unable to and don't want to pay for a new download. I know that in real history a demesne was any kind of holding that was not granted by a ruler to a vassal. But in the first CK it seemed that it was simplified to just being only provinces (land and all holdings, cities etc..within the province) not granted to vassals. Now it is any kind of holding. Am I wrong on this?

 

[Aardvark Bellay]

You didnt even play the tutorial, eh ?
Well in CK2 you have baronies, which you didnt have in CK1. The demesne is every holding you hold directly.
So its best to have the county capitols as part of your demesne to get money or troops from the holdings underneath which are ruled by bishops, mayors or barons just like in real life.
You still can have vassals in other people counties. IF you are their liege you can transfer vassalage to the according liege of the holdings as they will want the dejure (by right/law) holdings that they should hold.
As well the game is rather based on traits and actions taken than the reputation thing you had in CK1. No more reputation value in CK2.
Play the tutorial first, i recommend it.



PS: In the beginning as a count it makes sense to revoke even city and bishophric holdings to fully use your demesne size. Later on , give it back to vassals again, as your vassals will get money to spend on buildings that you dont get when you hold them directly, even with a stewart doing his work in this province..

 

[Strompator]

Actually I did go through the tutorial; it wasn't very good. It explained that baronies were a new level of power in the game - like it was just a new addition to the provinces, and whatever provinces you ended up having in your demesne would yield the baronies which were in those provinces. The tutorial didn't explain the details of how a ruler's demesne can include holdings in other ruler's or vassal's demesnes. It seems silly. Rulers should have control of all holdings in just their demesnes. The definition of demesne in this case meaning simply the provinces they control directly and all holdings therein - not holding far flung things across the realm and calling that a demesne.

 

[Zireael]

Well, rulers in CKII don't always control the entirety of their provinces.

And you shouldn't have expected much from the tutorial...

 

[Darkgamma]

Also, baronies too include land around them.

 

[eremiax]

And you shouldn't have expected much from the tutorial...

To be fair, even if one doesn't expect much from a PI tutorial it tends to disappoint. From what I remember the one in CK2 amounts to a handful very short scenarios and lots of text. Meh.

 

[ziamatt]

To be fair, even if one doesn't expect much from a PI tutorial it tends to disappoint. From what I remember the one in CK2 amounts to a handful very short scenarios and lots of text. Meh.

I don't even bother with Paradox tutorials anymore. Jumping into the game and learning by doing and then looking to the forums when I need help is infinitely more useful.

 

[Morwys]

CK2 has a good tutorial and I don't see the difficulty, specially because you played CKI.

You have holdings. They are your demesne. You can have as much holdings as you demesne allows you to without penalties. Your holding can be a castle, a city or a bishopric. In the latter two, you are not the proper ruler of that type of holding, so, you will get penalties. Your holding can also be the capital of a province, or not. If it is, that province count title is yours. If not, it's somebody else's.

That's it.

 

[Closet Skeleton]

It seems silly. Rulers should have control of all holdings in just their demesnes. The definition of demesne in this case meaning simply the provinces they control directly and all holdings therein - not holding far flung things across the realm and calling that a demesne.

It can be silly but that doesn't mean it isn't realistic.

For example the UK's owning of Gibraltar (or England's earlier possession of Calais) would be owning a barony in a county of a different kingdom entirely.

German rulers often owned the odd town scattered all over the place as well as their core counties. The Hohenzollern family started out as owning just Zollern (a barony in game) before acquriing Nuremburg (a county in game no where near Zollern) and still held on to Zollern until 1918.

 

[Strompator]

PDR1987:

No, the tutorial was lame. No detail. Advanced x or y or z was a joke. Yeah I played CK I but it was more straightforward in explanation of a demesne.

 

[Strompator]

Closet Skeleton:

I agree with you that it did happen historically. Which, you know, it might make this game better; it just threw me off at first. I don't like having direct control of baronies in terratories of which the vassal absolutely hates me. And for game purposes it does seem silly to have a holding in a province where the vassal hates your ruler and the ruler takes 100% of the tax money and available levies of the holding. It's like you are the lord of your neighborhood, but you have a liege that owns the local bar that brings in a ton of money, but you can't touch it. Tis odd.

 

[Zireael]

Well, I agree that there should be ways to gain barony/whatever which is under you. Maybe via events?

 

[Darkgamma]

There's already a county war CB for random baronies inside counties you control.

 

[ZechsMerquise73]

A demesne is whatever you personally hold in the form of baronies or counties. Duchies/Kingdoms/Empires and vassals do not count toward demesne value. Maybe your confusion derives from the two games using the same term for different things.

Demesne is different from de jure property. You can own a county or barony in someone else's de jure land. They just have a claim on it. If you, the King, hold a barony in your Duke's land, the Duke has no authority over you as the baron, except that he has a claim on your land. Counts get a de jure claim on their baronies, dukes on their counties, kings on their duchies, and emperors on their kingdoms.

You can give vassals to anyone in your realm of a higher tier by using the 'transfer vassalage' diplomatic option. I think you can usually use your de jure claim to kick people out of your de jure land, but not your direct vassals (E.G., not a baron under your county, but a duke holding your county's barony).

 

[Strompator]

Maybe your confusion derives from the two games using the same term for different things.

Yep Zechs, that was indeed the problem!

 

[Strompator]

Well, I agree that there should be ways to gain barony/whatever which is under you. Maybe via events?

Now this is an interesting idea. I have two baronies in my dutchy that belong to two odious characters and would really like to control those baronies. I went to war with both of them yesterday and occupied the baronies but that doesn't give you the baronies. So an event could be cool.