Demand Duchy from Liege

[NiliusJulius]

So I started playing as the count of Gelre and I would now like to work my way up to a duke.

Now I have this greyed out decision: Demand Duchy from Liege
For that I need his oponion of me to be at least 25 (which it is)
and
Liege:
Demesne Title:
Title rank is duke
desired by: Count Gozewijn of Gelre(me)
Can be given away
Duke Kuno I's rank is lower than Duke

Duke Kuno I is my liege, who in turn has the Holy Roman Emporer as a liege.
Now something in all of this seems to be dissallowing me this decision. I can't figure out which one it is though. If I play as Duke Kuno I can grant the duchy to Count Gozewijn.

I am mostly puzzled bij the last part: Duke Kuno I's rank is lower than Duke
Does the game think he isn't a duke?

 

[newuser99]

Well a duke granting a duchy to someone else would make that someone else independent, for what it's worth.

But honestly I'm curious, how do you demand a duchy from your liege anyway? Is this in vanilla somewhere? Is it a plot? I thought your liege only granted you land if they (randomly) felt like it, and I've never had one (randomly) feel like it...

 

[Gedierond]

As I understand it, you can´t demand a Duchy from your liege if he doesn´t have any higher title. If your liege is a King or an Emperor besides being your Duke, then you can demand it. Otherwise, he would be demoted to Count, which wouldn´t be much clever, lol!

 

[Tiuz]

Well a duke granting a duchy to someone else would make that someone else independent, for what it's worth.

But honestly I'm curious, how do you demand a duchy from your liege anyway? Is this in vanilla somewhere? Is it a plot? I thought your liege only granted you land if they (randomly) felt like it, and I've never had one (randomly) feel like it...

It sounds like a decision, since he can see the requirements and is unable to select it. He also mentioned it being one.

I'd guess the problem is the liege only having one ducal title, which would demote him to count if he handed it out. One possibility is to get a claim for the duchy (marrying heirs/being lucky fabricating claims) and then plot/war against the liege. Also fabricating claims on and then controlling enough of the de-jure counties of Gelre would allow usurpation/creation of the duchy.

EDIT: Not certain, but i seem to vaguely remember courtiers/vassals demanding ducal titles from me when i had more than one. Might be remembering wrongly though.

 

[NiliusJulius]

He has 2 dutchies, namely köln and gelre.

 

[NiliusJulius]

If I start a game as the count of lyon I can also ask for a dutchy, directly from the holy roman emporer.
But what it says as the last line then is:
Kaiser Heinrich III's rank is lower then the Emperor.

So it will always have an impossible necessity?

 

[tdpatriots12]

Just had some experience with this. Started as the County of Geneve, acquired - through fabrication and warfare - all but one of the remaining counties in the de jure Duchy of Savoie. The Holy Roman Emperor had created - and still possessed - this title, as well as the sole remaining county that was not in my possession.

The Emperor had a positive (>25) opinion of my liege, so I qualified to trigger this decision: The Emperor was my direct liege, he controlled the Duchy to which my character clearly had the best claim, and there was a positive relationship between the two.

So I saved, then triggered the event. He declined.

So I reloaded, waited 'till my treasury was a bit more full, and sent the Emperor a big ol' bribe, raising his approval to 100. Then I triggered the event again. He declined.

So I reloaded, saved up the bribe again and sent it, but this time I also had the HRE's wife killed - secretly - and had my liege (a female) marry him. Then I triggered the event. He declined.

Having tried everything I could think of, I just accepted that I wasn't going to get it that way and moved on with my save.

 

[NiliusJulius]

Just had some experience with this. Started as the County of Geneve, acquired - through fabrication and warfare - all but one of the remaining counties in the de jure Duchy of Savoie. The Holy Roman Emperor had created - and still possessed - this title, as well as the sole remaining county that was not in my possession.

The Emperor had a positive (>25) opinion of my liege, so I qualified to trigger this decision: The Emperor was my direct liege, he controlled the Duchy to which my character clearly had the best claim, and there was a positive relationship between the two.

So I saved, then triggered the event. He declined.

So I reloaded, waited 'till my treasury was a bit more full, and sent the Emperor a big ol' bribe, raising his approval to 100. Then I triggered the event again. He declined.

So I reloaded, saved up the bribe again and sent it, but this time I also had the HRE's wife killed - secretly - and had my liege (a female) marry him. Then I triggered the event. He declined.

Having tried everything I could think of, I just accepted that I wasn't going to get it that way and moved on with my save.

I would be interesed to know what it says on your screen then under the question mark.
Liege: Demense title:
and then?

 

[NiliusJulius]

Or could it just be that I need to be a duke before I can ask for the duchy?

 

[Sopot]

No, I've had counts ask me for dutchies, he just needs to be in a position where he can actually give it to you, such as a king holding a ducal title that you have a county in. A duke wont give away a ducal title to a vassal without either a fight or a plot.

 

[tdpatriots12]

I would be interesed to know what it says on your screen then under the question mark.
Liege: Demense title:
and then?

I think the wording is just... wrong. Because the Kaiser is obviously an Emperor, yet, well:

 

[Gedierond]

If I start a game as the count of lyon I can also ask for a dutchy, directly from the holy roman emporer.
But what it says as the last line then is:
Kaiser Heinrich III's rank is lower then the Emperor.

So it will always have an impossible necessity?

Was the Emperor your direct liege? Or was your liege a Duke who was vassal of the Emperor or a King? I think you can only ask for a Duchy to a King/Emperor if he is the actual owner of the Duchy your County belongs to.

 

[tdpatriots12]

Triggered the event from that save for the hell of it, and to my surprise he accepted that time. Took a screenshot of an example of a positive and negative response for completeness:

 

[Gedierond]

I think the wording is just... wrong. Because the Kaiser is obviously an Emperor, yet, well:

View attachment 55197

Maybe (I´m just guessing here) what that phrase means is if your liege will end up with a lower rank than he already has when he gives you the title you are demanding. In this case the game is wondering: "Will the Kaiser have a lower rank than Emperor if he gives you the Duchy? No. Then you can demand the Duchy".

 

[Dearmad]

Something is wrong in the game becasue I want to ask for the duchy from a guy who has 4! of them:

What gives?? When CAN we ask and when can we NOT??

 

[newuser99]

Is it his primary title? Maybe you can't do it then.

 

[thebigj_a]

I've always wondered about that. I've never qualified to click it in any game, and that last line always makes no sense. "Can be given away, King's rank is lower than King" (or duke, or emperor, whatever) is clearly not saying whatever it is the devs were trying to communicate. How has the wording not been fixed by now?

 

[Emre Yigit]

Why don't you just usurp the title if you hold 50%+ of the counties in it? I've had vassals usurp from me in the past.

 

[Dearmad]

Is it his primary title? Maybe you can't do it then.

No he is the Duke of Northumberland, not Hereford, which is theplace I want.

Why don't you just usurp the title if you hold 50%+ of the counties in it? I've had vassals usurp from me in the past.

I cannot usurp from anyone in the same realm unless I have a claim...

 

[Isaios]

It's a pretty easy decision as it goes, it just very seldom works.

(If anyone wonders, it's located under the Intrigue tab, at the top of the list of decisions. When available, it will also trigger an icon at the top border of the screen.)

You can only demand Duchies from Kings and Emperors.

Once triggered, your liege gets an event, weighted like so:

Accept: 50
Deny: 100
Deny with Diplo: 1000

Which means that as long as the Liege has Diplomacy of 9 or more, he will ALWAYS deny you. It'll sound like "Jesus will reward you in time" "your loyalty is the bedrock". Something like that. Sounds good, but little substance.

A Greedy Liege will also never say yes, while a charitable one will be less likely to sat no.

# Liege receives the request
letter_event = {
	id = 63041
	desc = "EVTDESC63041"
	
	is_friendly = yes
	
	border = "GFX_event_letter_frame_diplomacy"
	
	is_triggered_only = yes
	
	option = {
		name = "EVTOPTA63041" # Accept the request
		ai_chance = { 
			factor = 50
			modifier = {
				factor = 0
				trait = greedy
			}
			modifier = {
				factor = 0
				NOT = {
					opinion = { who = FROM value = -20 }
				}
			}
			modifier = {
				factor = 0.5
				NOT = {
					opinion = { who = FROM value = 25 }
				}
			}
			modifier = {
				factor = 0.5
				NOT = {
					opinion = { who = FROM value = 50 }
				}
			}
		}
		random_demesne_title = {
			limit = {
				has_de_jure_pretension = FROM
				can_be_given_away = yes
				lower_tier_than = ROOT
				NOT = {
					AND = {
						tier = count
						location = {
							is_capital = yes
						}				
					}
				}
			}
			gain_title = FROM
		}
		hidden_tooltip = {
			FROM = { letter_event = { id = 63042 days = 1 } }
		}
		reverse_opinion = {
			modifier = opinion_grateful
			who = FROM
			months = 120
		}
	}
	
	option = {
		name = "EVTOPTB63041" # Deny the request
		ai_chance = { 
			factor = 100
			modifier = {
				factor = 0.5
				trait = charitable
			}
			modifier = {
				factor = 0.75
				opinion = { who = FROM value = 20 }
			}
			modifier = {
				factor = 0.5
				opinion = { who = FROM value = 50 }
			}
		}
		FROM = { 
			opinion = {
				modifier = opinion_disappointed
				who = ROOT
				months = 120
			}
			letter_event = { id = 63043 tooltip = "EVTTOOLTIP63043" } 
		}
	}
	
	option = {
		name = "EVTOPTC63041" # Deny with superior diplomacy
		tooltip_info = diplomacy
		trigger = {
			diplomacy = 9
		}
		ai_chance = { 
			factor = 1000
		}
		FROM = { letter_event = { id = 63044 tooltip = "EVTTOOLTIP63044" } }
	}
}

To sum: Don't bother asking a Greedy or Diplomacy 9+ Liege. Keep relations at 50+ and hope for a Charitable Liege.