Delighted to see save scumming fall out of fashion with streamers

[Lars_Schneller]

I reckon OP didn't mean to teach others, moreso to express that he wouldn't watch streamers who savescum over RNG. On that I agree with him. Strategy ruined because of hunting accidents and tough luck with sieges is part of the strategy you have to incalculate.

RNG is part of the game, and rightfully so, because history includes many moments that are simple RNG. Who could have predicted that Peter the Great, admittedly a pretty good ruler in all three fields, would decide to jump in a frozen river and die of pneumonia? Austrians and French would probably save scum the moment they learned Russian armies, that were nearing the victory over Prussia, suddenly retreated because of ascension of new tsar. You can savescum, if you so wish - I obviously can't dictate way you play, but I won't watch you as a streamer in that case.

Reloading saves because of misclicks and bugs is okay. I have, too, reloaded saves when I clicked 'Accept Demands' instead of 'Harsh Treatment'.

 

[Deliberus]

I really don't like save scumming and have almost never done it in EU4 or any other game. I was shocked to see some Twitch/YouTube EU4 players that I respect do it.

However, I was having the world's fun with my Byzantium save when my heir then ruler died and I got stuck with a Habsburg. He was a 1/0/1, but that's not why I reloaded. I didn't want a Byzantine Habsburg. For me this is beyond cursed and ruined the roleplaying experience I was having, so I reloaded and ended up with a 6/5/5 Greek. I didn't feel guilty for that. I'd already gotten Basileus.

I'd feel I cheated if I save scummed for an achievement, which is something I never have, or never will do. Hell, I even feel guilty when my game legitimately crashes!

Let's not pretend like we haven't save scummed when attempting to restore the roman empire as byz

 

[wielkiciensteam]

I reckon OP didn't mean to teach others, moreso to express that he wouldn't watch streamers who savescum over RNG.

I know but often you find people both here, on reddit, steam forums etc. that try to impose their ruleset on others, criticizing people for exploiting game, save-scaming etc. When it comes to streamers - it's fun to watch Florryworry start 20 times the same impossible challenge and replay 15 first years but it's not fun to watch his campaign ruined in 1600s, 1700s because of some game bug or just silly RNG. So, as always - it depends whether it's ok to save-scam. Save-scaming because 5/5/5 heir had an accident isn't ok in my book but save-scaming because, for example, AI refused to transfer some important province to player while AI wasn't interested in taking it is a thing I consider ok to save-scam and quickly rush to it and take it for myself.

 

[atwix]

I have been streaming for 3+ years and only ever kill the game if bugs, UI lies or blatant misclicks happen and have influence on the campaign.

I never really like doing it, as my potato desktop takes 5 minutes to load the eu4 client....

The new "standard" is to play the game without loans or allies.. I fail to see the fun, if you got to restart 20 times to be succesful. I rather succeed try one using all features in the game, without birding or whatnot.

Each audience member is different. Some watch for the use of exploits leading to crazy stuff (these people sometimes call a non exploit user meek and boring).. Others watch to learn, and I enjoy using every trick in the book from diplomacy to micro to satisfy that kinda viewer. Its usually these type of viewers that do NOT like watching WC, bug exploit campaigns, or birding.

To each their own

 

[wielkiciensteam]

The new "standard" is to play the game without loans or allies.. I fail to see the fun, if you got to restart 20 times to be succesful. I rather succeed try one using all features in the game, without birding or whatnot.

As one of your viewers I can only say that your campaigns bring lot of fun!
As for no loans or allies - well, I guess you are referring to Florry - IMO he is just bored with "vanilla" ruleset for the game and I can see why - if I ever cross 30k hours on EU4 I would too be probably looking for silly/hardcore challenges...

 

[WolframS67]

Just a few points, I want to comment.

"Save scumming negates risk"
I don't think this is correct, in my mind it is more: "Relying on save scumming negates risk".
One example: I make a save and declare a war.
a) If the war goes badly, I reload the save. This time I shy away from declaring the war and do something different. That is relying on the roll-back and indeed eliminating risk.
b) I discover, that I am fighting for blockade of ports, because I somehow managed to misclick the CB and instead of Conquest I got Trade conflict. I reload the save and declare the war with the CB I intended, no matter how well the war went so far. I am in the same risk-situation as the first time and I am not relying on the roll-back.

"RNG kills strategy"
That is incorrect and it is more an indication of an incomplete (or possibly outright bad) strategy.
If I play cards, e.g. Poker, I can't tell the dealer: "No, not that card. It is bad and it wasn't in my strategy. Give me another one." In fact I must have a strategy for all the possible cards the dealer might give me. Imperfect information is part of the game and nevertheless it is a game of skills and strategy.

EU4 is a free game. Well, in the sense of control. I have watched several videos/streams, where the player used methods, that are not in my personal book of rules anymore. But every player can do what he likes and I can't expect everyone to think about rules, exactly the way I do. Nevertheless I might get some information/pleasure out of these videos. Each his own style.

 

[wielkiciensteam]

b) I discover, that I am fighting for blockade of ports, because I somehow managed to misclick the CB and instead of Conquest I got Trade conflict. I reload the save and declare the war with the CB I intended, no matter how well the war went so far. I am in the same risk-situation as the first time and I am not relying on the roll-back.

Yeah, that one is huge pain in the ***... Once I've fought as, IIRC, Thuringia emperor and declared war on France+Otto in mid 1600s. France held 1 imperial province and I've spent more than a decade in war, loosing impossible amount of soldiers and learned at the end that I could take only one prov. Rage quit of course.

 

[wielkiciensteam]

A fun question for all of you, folks - do you consider saving, quiting and loading again game as cheating equal to save-scaming? For example you can easily disband coalition when you reload game if members have enough opinion of you.

 

[love sweden]

Where is the fun in doing a run and losing hours worth of gameplay cause you missclicked something or chose the wrong CB.

 

[Lars_Schneller]

It really isn't that hard to understand that point isn't about reloading because of misclicking, but because of bad RNG and player mistakes.

 

[Lars_Schneller]

A fun question for all of you, folks - do you consider saving, quiting and loading again game as cheating equal to save-scaming? For example you can easily disband coalition when you reload game if members have enough opinion of you.

If streamer does it with clear intention (like seeing coalition has formed, reloads and disbands it) it's clearly cheating. If you come to your regular end of the stream and next day coalition is gone, then it isn't intentional, thus not cheating - it isn't cheating if game offers it even beyond your wish.

 

[EarlKonrad]

A fun question for all of you, folks - do you consider saving, quiting and loading again game as cheating equal to save-scaming? For example you can easily disband coalition when you reload game if members have enough opinion of you.

As always, the reason behind the why is important. Speaking only in regards to coalitions, I think this is fair play as reloding the game forces it to recalculate stuff, as it should. Coalition members not leaving when they should (as demonstrable by reloading the game) can be either attributed to it being a bug or an issue with how and when the game decided to recalculate stuff.

Incidentally, I've never quit and reloaded the game as much as I do in 1.30. every time I see an AI Merc stack that is stuck in a province I reload the game which, incidentally, is incredibly common. In this particar situation, one could argue that not reloading is giving yourself an advantage, or the nation(s) that is(are) fighting against the AI whose mercs are stuck.

 

[SwordofKhaine123]

Others watch to learn, and I enjoy using every trick in the book from diplomacy to micro to satisfy that kinda viewer.

I agree. I watch the difficult achievement runs like 'heir of timur' or 'eat your greens' to see what the strategy or the path is to get that. I don't even care if the youtuber or streamer reloads multiple times as long as the strategy is objectively good and works.

 

[Torredebelem]

For me, a misclick is a misclick and warrants a reload everytime. Now for bad RNG, that is dealing with fate that has nothing to do with reloading and I find over the long run a sudden turn of fate can lead to enormously fun and rewarding sessions. OTOH I don't play for achievements (or WC, for that matter) and I know some of them need luck to play a decisive role in attaining them.

 

[SwordofKhaine123]

Just save scummed from a position where enemy sieged down a level 3 fort at 7% while I was at 49% on his capital. I'm glad there is some form of "checks & balances" to undo the absolute madness that the AI inflicts on players.

 

[klingonadmiral]

If I play cards, e.g. Poker, I can't tell the dealer:

In Poker you can fold. And while you can do so in EU4 as well (by restarting), going through the France earlygame 20 times just to get the BI is grating.

RNG has to be within a certain threshold to aid strategy, and EU4 was multiple instances where RNG simply blazes past that line. BI, Crimean Khanate and the entire PU mechanic are the most egregious offenders.

 

[wielkiciensteam]

Just save scummed from a position where enemy sieged down a level 3 fort at 7% while I was at 49% on his capital. I'm glad there is some form of "checks & balances" to undo the absolute madness that the AI inflicts on players.

Siegeing is one of the worst aspects of EU4, fully dependent on RNG. Just imagine having CK3/CK2/V2 system in EU4...

 

[EarlKonrad]

Siegeing is one of the worst aspects of EU4, fully dependent on RNG. Just imagine having CK3/CK2/V2 system in EU4...

Wasn't CK2's siege system as RNG as EU4's? At least that is how I remember it.

 

[klingonadmiral]

Wasn't CK2's siege system as RNG as EU4's? At least that is how I remember it.

No, CK2 sieges consistently ticked up depending on the ratio of attacker to defenders and tech. IIRC

 

[wielkiciensteam]

Wasn't CK2's siege system as RNG as EU4's? At least that is how I remember it.

No, if you have enough man then every 12 days siege level is lowered by certain -%. Starting at 100% it goes down depending on the number of troops you have and technology.