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This thread is for discussing the house rules for the Dedicated European Game of Hearts of Iron (DEG HoI). As the rules are changed, I will edit this first post instead of making a new thread.

First some common abbreviations:
CG = Consumer Goods
CW = Commonwealth (includes UK, Canada, South Africa, Australia, New Zeeland)
AI = Any non-human controlled nation
DOW = Declaration of War
WE = War Entry

DEG HoI House Rules v1.033 (last update: June 7, 2004)

Players and nations:

1.1 Version: HoI 1.06, without any mods.
1.2 Players: We play only with dedicated, punctual, mature and polite European players with a fast internet connection (sorry, no Americans, Canadians or modem players). All players should have and use ICQ in order for the players to be able to communicate.
1.3 Players and teams: Minimum 6 players. We prefer evenly matched teams such as 3 vs 3 or 4 vs 4. We will tolerate 4 vs 3, but generally avoid 5 vs 3 games.
1.4 Nations played: Besides the 6 major nations (Germany, Italy, Japan, UK, USA, Soviets) we will accept the following nations: France, any CW minor (usually Canada or Australia), any Axis minor (usually Romania). We will NOT accept any Latin American/South American countries. Nationalist China is only acceptable if campaign starts in 1939.
1.5 Game sessions: If you can not make it to one of our regular game days, post on the HoI Forum or send an ICQ message to the other players. A stand-in will be used instead, unless the other players agree to cancel the session (canceling is usually a good idea if one of the major nations regular players can not make it).

General rules and limitations:
2.1 Nuclear weapons: Not allowed.
2.2 Paras: Allowed. Make as many as you want, and use them any way you want.
2.3 Amphibious invasion: Every alliance is limited to maximum six divisions per continent in simultanious seabourne invasions. The invading forces can only be reinforced over the six division limit after the invaded provinces are conquered.
2.4 Resources and supplies: You can only send to nations in your alliance (exception: USA and CW nations may send to Soviets if Soviets are at war with Germany AND if the war was started by the Axis).
2.5 Events: Players are allowed to choose any of the choices available during an event or election (only exceptions: France must accept Vichy if the Germans offer this, Japan must choose to become Paternal Autocrat).
2.6 Stacking limits: None.
2.7 Unit deployments: Newly produced or upgraded units must be deployed immediately. You can not keep them in the force pool. It is not allowed to move units around in the production que simply in order to delay their completion.
2.8 Strategic redeploy: As soon as a unit is ready to be redeployed it must be placed back on the map. You can not keep units in the strategic reserve. It is forbidden to strategically redeploy units into or out of a province that borders to an enemy province, or to a province where combat is currently taking place.
2.9 Surrounding enemy capital: Not allowed unless you attack the capital within a reasonable amount of time.
2.10 General exploits: Not allowed (includes accepting events that fire during each start up (like the Lend-Lease events), Japan annexing China before the Nanking event, using ghost armies to conquer enemy provinces, upgrading infrastructure in provinces that you will loose, Italy DOWing Vichy France, Allies or Soviets activating the Monroe Doctrine before the USA is in the war).
2.11 Major bugs: For major bugs such as important elections or events not happening and units that vanish, we will strive for an immediate editing of the save file and a re-host. If Japan has not had it’s election by 1 September 1937, we will edit the save file. Other events will be edited directly if they do not happen (includes Anschluss, Treaty of Munich, End of Czechoslovakia, Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, Danzig or War)

Diplomatic actions:
3.1 Diplomatic actions at game start: At the start of each game (while it is still paused), all nations take turns performing diplomatic actions. The nation with the highest amount of Diplomatic Influence (DI) starts, and is allowed to perform one diplomatic action, followed by the nation with the second-most DI, etc. When all nations have performed one action, a new round is performed, until no nations want to perform any actions.
3.2 Type of government: You can not coup or influence a human player. USA may not become Stalinist.
3.3 Alliances: Soviets can not join Axis or Allies. Nationalist China can not join any alliance. Once a human nation has joined an alliance, it may not leave this alliance.
3.4 DOW: You are only allowed to DOW a country if your land forces take a direct part in the invasion of the country (example: an Axis Italy can not DOW Denmark on behalf of Germany). You may never DOW a country in Central America or South America unless the USA is a part of the Allies (you can of course first DOW the USA so they become a part of the Allies, and then DOW for example Brazil).
3.5 Military access: You may not ask for military access (exception: you can ask military access from a puppet you control). You may not attack from neutral land or make an amphibious assault from neutral ships.
3.6 Military control: If you assume military control over an AI nation you may not use this nations units at the expense of the host nations security (example: the UK may not take control of AI France and move the French Army to UK mainland before the fall of France).
3.7 Expeditionary forces: You may send an unlimited amount of expeditionary units of any type to a human-controlled nation in your alliance. You may not send expeditionary forces to AI nations or a country that is not part of your alliance (only exception: you may send 3 divisions to the Spanish Civil War, but only if you supported it via the event, and the divisions must be returned to you once the war is won by either side).
3.8 Coup+DOW: Couping a nation simply in order to be able to DOW at more favorable conditions (such as avoiding a French AI auto-DOW, avoid raising US WE, avoid dissent) is not allowed. You may “re-coup” a nation that has been couped by the opposing side, and then DOW them if you wish (example: the Italian player may not coup Turkey and DOW them in order to avoid the French AI auto-DOW, but if the UK coups Yugoslavia so it becomes democratic, the Italians may coup them back to paternal autocrat and then DOW them).
3.9 Annex: You must annex a country when this is possible (you can puppet instead if you want). You must try to capture the remaining provinces with victory points if this is possible.
3.10 Puppet: You are not allowed to puppet a human player (you can however annex them if you want).
3.11 Liberate puppet: You are not allowed to liberate a puppet.
3.12 Tech sharing to human nations: Not allowed (exception: CW nations may send both silver and gold tech to other CW nations, even if they are human controlled).
3.13 Tech sharing to AI nations: You may only send tech to AI nations in your alliance, and you may only send silver tech (exception: CW nations may send both silver and gold tech to AI controlled CW nations).

Game speed and hosting:
4.1 Pausing: All players may pause when necessary. IMPORTANT: since this is a multiplayer game, avoid pausing the game if you are not at war, and avoid doing it for non-essential tasks such as queuing research or making units. There will always be a mandatory pause on 1st January each year, until all players are ready.
4.2 Game speed: The host decides the game speed. During peace time this is generally “Above normal” and in war time “Below normal” or “Slow”. Any player may request a lower game speed. It is preferred to have a lower game speed than to have continual pausing.
 
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Originally posted by MadViking
Nations played: Besides the 6 major nations (Germany, Italy, Japan, UK, USA, Soviets) we will accept the following nations: France, any CW minor (usually Canada or Australia), any Axis minor (usually Romania). We will NOT accept any Latin American/South American countries or Nationalist China.
Excluding Nationalist China seems odd - it's one of the standard choices offered by the game. Without a human player, Japan is usually able to conquer China quite quickly and this is unhistorical. A good way of handling this would be to have the the prospective USA player playing Nationalist China until their WE gets to a reasonable level. Likewise, the USSR player might play Communist China initially.

Andrew
 

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The reason for not having China in the game is, I admit, quite unhistorical. The reason is mainly for game balance. Also, I do not know of any player who would prefer to play as Nat/Com China from game start, and then switch to the USA or USSR and play a country with a neglected level of research and IC upgrading.
 

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Puppet: You are not allowed to puppet a human player

why? he/she can continue playing for other side.


Tech sharing to human nations: Not allowed (exception: CW nations may send both silver and gold tech to other CW nations, even if they are human controlled).

I say then and ai country in allience of axis/allies can recive gold tech too, not only cw, because france (human player) gets it from other ai cw coutrys, and Canada can send gold tech to UK then.


Military access: You can not ask for military access (exception: you can ask military access from a puppet you control). You may only base your units in a country in your alliance (you don’t need military access for this). In other words, you may not refuel aircraft of ships in any country that is not in your alliance. You may not attack from neutral land or make an amphibious assault from neutral ships. (example: a non-Axis Japan may not have their units on German or Italian soil, the UK and USA may not have their units on Soviet soil and vice versa, Japan can not refuel their fleet in Brazil)

Germany had in ww2 refuling in neutral lands, south america, portugal,spain... japan, so i dont see reason why german unit cant be in japan ( japs dont want to join axis because they want to avoid war with su), i agree with no attacking from mil acess teritory but i dont see any reason for not refuling, we all know rules and we will not do anything stupid. As you all know i use a lot of mil access but i think that i never abused it.

You may never DOW a country in Central America or South America unless the USA is a part of the Allies

Why not to dow someone in south america if uk is in war with you? UK has biggest navy and bases (bunch of island from fallklands to canada) so it can stop any attack on minor country there.


Expeditionary forces: You may send an unlimited amount of units to a country in your alliance, but a maximum of 3 units to a country not in your alliance

I say we raise a limit to 6 or 12 of each type air/land/sea because this way uk can slow down italy rampaging on mediteran

Im free for talk about rules whenever you see me on icq 67569620


Tom
 

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Nationalist China can not join any alliance.
Since NatChi can't be played anyway, what's the point of this rule?

Also, I assume you can share freely to AI allies?

And I really wish we had a rule regulating pausing. Atleast ban pausing for common actions (Moving units, attacking, minor deployments (With 12 or less units), selecting research, changing IC sliders etc.). If you are slow and can't handle the game at below normal speed, well, too bad.

Liberate puppet: You are not allowed to liberate a puppet.
Now why is that? :D
 

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Seems as though not all the lines got copied from my Word document. Added the final lines (includes among other things pausing and tech share).

Even if Nationalist China is not human controlled, the UK or Soviets can invite them into their alliance (yes, I admit the chances of them accepting are small, but still....).

Also, I assume you can share freely to AI allies?

No, you are allowed to send silver tech to any AI nation in your alliance.

Concerning pausing: It would be quite difficult to enforce any rule that banned pausing for certain actions, but not for others. If I had a Palantir it would be a bit easier I guess. :)
 

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Originally posted by MadViking
I do not know of any player who would prefer to play as Nat/Com China from game start, and then switch to the USA or USSR and play a country with a neglected level of research and IC upgrading.
If no-one wanted to play Nationlist China then you wouldn't need a house rule forbidding this. Myself, I would rather play Nationalist China than sit around for years as the USA doing next to nothing.

Andrew
 

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What you do in the early years with USA and USSR is very important to how they do later, regardless of how boring it might be.
 

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hmm

What we want to do in my eyes is to restrict the amount of sillyness we can do with AI ..

So military access with neutral countries is a tad no no ish, EXEPT with human players who should do as they feel like.

Also exp.corpses is a troublesome thing, already the allies can send spain 3 divs each, while the axis can only send 3 german divs..making the spanish civil war a hard thing for the axis to make a surefire win, unless Italy is allied with germany, so they too can send exp-corps..

Last game I had 3 french, 3 SU and 3 UK divs in spain...

Also liberating puppets can be done in my eyes in peacetime...
If you are at peace you can liberate anything you want too..
If not..then its a gamey thing to do.

Jan
 

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The part about exp forces to Spain is now limited to 0 divs, unless you actually sent them help via the event, in which case you may send the usual 3 divs. I personally dont like the option of liberating puppets, even in peace time, since it still opens up for some seriously strange things.
 

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Updated the House Rules, now currently called v1.01. Added a part about "Diplomatic actions at game start". This has been discussed previously with many of the DEG team, I had intended to include this in the first version but forgot this rule (thanks to Juv for reminding me about it). Please read it and comment on it.
 

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hmm

Aye, I agree on the spanish situation..
If you say no to the event, why should you interfere with exp-divs ...

Also the turns in diploactions, I guess is nice..altough it only really applies to uk and italy hehehe as the rest doesn't have the interrest in doing much.

But its a rule we used in EU 2 to prevent diploproblems at start.

One more thing
I STRONGLY recommend that any waractions are discussed on the team be fore you actually commit to them.
but not sure if its a rule hehe
:rolleyes:

Jan
 
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Re liberating puppets.. I would suggest that you can only liberate a puppet if it was yours at game start (e.g Liberia for US, or Nepal for UK) or if it is a country you puppeted in game AND none of its territory is ennemy occupied. That should limit the silliness.

Re diplomatic actions at start of game, this seems fairly cumbersome and I dont really understand the point of this extra rule... What is the problem that this rule tries to solve ?

I would also suggest to add that in the 36 scenario only germany is allowed to dow a democracy until germany and allies are at war.. Otherwise there is the funny bug of for example SU dowing some demo and the french imediately dowing...... germany

Finally for exp corp... I think this is one of the only ways to put a stop to the "early italian rampage" syndrome... So you may want to expend your rule to the effect that "you can send an unlimited number of expeditionnary forces to countries you share a border with that are under attack by a major power"... i.e SU could send whatever it wants to Rumania, turkey or Persia for example (they feel threatened so they react ... just like the 500 000 or so chinese troops during the Korean war in the 50's without China being at war with the US) but only 3 divisions to ... say bulgaria or yugoslavia..... This rule does NOT apply to the spanish civil war (so UK and France are still limited to 3 divs in Spain max)
 

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hmm

The rule with diplomatic actions are actually ment to prevent a massive diplo manouvre at the start of the game, and take it into a more sivil tone with turns...

And since UK has the most diplo's they get first round..and so on..
Giving Italy 1 war possibility and the uk 1 maybe 2 coups at start of 36 to prevent italy's annexation spree..

This way we won't get a frantic start with uk and italy's results being decided on who is the fastest mouseclicking fellah.

As for exp-corps..
I am tempted to say that I agree on the unlimited part, actually I guess it might just as well have been unlimited in all parts, altough I Have a serious problem with UK giving their transporters to the SU before 39..this can lead to all kind of hell.

Sadly the 'teamplay' that we saw in ww2 starts too early in our games hehe...while historically Italy wasnt happy about Germany before 38 or so, and UK would hardly help out SU in anything.

So with this said, the forces used in spain can be delightfully restricted by who actually contributes to the spanish cause, for whatever purpose they may have later..(hehe).

Thus I sum up that I am undecided on the exp-forces thing, while we could use supplyproblems as a reason for limiting them, some nations were quite capable of holding large forces elsewhere easily...(uk again)..
Wars in Crimea during the 1800 era showed that easily.

But I think UK now with 100 dips are in an excellent position to limit Italian aggression easily...so there

Jan
 

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"Military access: You can not ask for military access.....you may not refuel aircraft of ships in any country that is not in your alliance"
"

I think that this is stupid rule, and must be changed, because if i as italy take persia, i cant supply them from afganistan because of that rule, and gibraltar and suez are in uk hands, and will remain soo.

"You may not attack from neutral land or make an amphibious assault from neutral ships"

I agree with this but first part is crap and i didnt see any good reason for not alowing supply from neutrals.


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Originally posted by Tom_HR
I think that this is stupid rule, and must be changed, because if i as italy take persia, i cant supply them from afganistan because of that rule, and gibraltar and suez are in uk hands, and will remain soo.

I agree with this but first part is crap and i didnt see any good reason for not alowing supply from neutrals.
A nation that supplies your troops with oil and supplies while you are at war is hardly neutral.

If you want to conquer and hold Persia, defend your supply routes.
 

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neutral countries and stuff.

While It may seem akward we should take our lessons from history instead of going for what 'we' think is reasonble.

It is said that during the vietnam war, Cambodia I think was a staging ground for Vietcong troops, and that the US also attacked some of these bases, but that Cambodia itself was never really a part of the war.

Also the Chinese intervention during the Korea war, what was that, exp-corps or direct intervention?..what was the results?

Jan
 

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Re: neutral countries and stuff.

Originally posted by Janster
While It may seem akward we should take our lessons from history instead of going for what 'we' think is reasonble.

It is said that during the vietnam war, Cambodia I think was a staging ground for Vietcong troops, and that the US also attacked some of these bases, but that Cambodia itself was never really a part of the war.

Also the Chinese intervention during the Korea war, what was that, exp-corps or direct intervention?..what was the results?
What happened during the cold war is not quite the same because the super-powers deliberately avoided escalation because of the risk of atomic war.

During WW2 there was some limited use of neutral countries such as Spain, Portugal (Azores) and Sweden. The biggest exception was the USA which was the "arsenal of democracy" while still technically neutral and bound by neutrality acts which had been passed in order to keep it out of another world war.

What's missing is the ability for the other side to exert diplomatic pressure on a small country like Afghanistan to get it to deny military access. That's what happened in practise with a country like Spain - both sides put pressure on it. Maybe the position of the circle within the diplomatic triangle should be a factor.

Andrew
 

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Re: neutral countries and stuff.

Originally posted by Janster
Also the Chinese intervention during the Korea war, what was that, exp-corps or direct intervention?..what was the results?

The result was that if USA/UN had wanted to officially accept the Chinese intervention as a DOW they could have.

If the Chinese/North Korean forces would have been beaten badly would anyone have raise their eyebrows if the US/UN forces had followed the fleeing forces into China? I think not.

In short. A thing like supplying a waring nation with supplies gives the enemies of the supplied nation a fair reason for a DOW (no dissent). Thus it is NOT neutral.