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Glenn Thomas Wrote

You have understood nothing of what Russia is and how it should be played.
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Thats a real constructive comment, well argumented with plenty of supporting evidence and learning points for all readers of this thread.

I am enlightened by the profound thinking behind it and am convinced this will be extremely useful in the strategic debate, second only to Clausewitz and Sun-Tsu masterpieces.

 

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Originally posted by Tom_HR
su gets 10 for dow and juv was on 0 in no time so if you could kick one axis player for 40 dissent you should do it (uk is better choice in that case then usa)



Landing from neutrals ships??? Then i ( as Italy, can join axis , send some transports as exp to germans, he load some tanks/inf) i leave axis before war starts, and move ships near uk and land them there without any danger from uk fleet, thats stupid its pure exploit!! exp forces must start from country which recives them and not from neutral ships.

Tom_HR

Could you then please tell me why the people of UK would be so furious (40 dissent is a lot) about UK dowing Italy when Italy clearly is an Axis power?

The world can not always be discribed in HoI-alliances and generic dissent penalties. Therefore sometimes you have to add a rule or two if you want to keep things reasonable. And I do. I am not of the opinion that a 40 per cent dissent hit is likely representing the peoples reaction in such a situation.

Whether UK still could have gained in dowing you with that penalty is not interesting. What SU gets for a dow or what dissent UK had at the time isn't of any interest either. Not to me anyway.

 

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My impression is that the game has some bugs in this area. In my current MP game, the UK has got out of sync with the rest of the Allies, and the game clearly has trouble recognising when alliance/wars should be merged.

But reflecting history is difficult. There was the Rome-Berlin Axis, the Anti-Comintern Pact and then the Tripartite Pact. Despite the latter two, Japan signed a neutrality pact with the USSR in 1941 and this lasted until 1945. Italy was an equally complex case and formally changed from the Axis to the Allies in 1943. I'm not sure if that can happen in the game. Can the Allies coup Italy and get them to change alliance?

Andrew

 

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Yes Italy was a complex case. Besides the fact that the dissent hit being too big for UK dowing Italy when they are (in all but in HoI game mechanics) allied with Germany, Italy never was that anti-SU.

They actually had some cooperation and Italy even helped SU build their fleet. Italy wanted some nice colonies in Africa and the Balkans. Other than that they didn't have much ambitions. Making war on SU and killing Jews was majorly done because of German pressure.

Yes they were bitter since the WWI peace but hardly on the SU. A much more realistic scenario would been that Italy did like Japan. Signed neutrality with SU and only joined the war against the Allies.

 

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Originally posted by Aldo
Besides the fact that the dissent hit being too big for UK...

That dissent hit is not really the right mechanism. In history, the UK declared war upon Germany and that didn't cause serious dissent. The game uses a trick to get round this - it starts with Poland and the UK in an alliance in 1936 so that when Germany goes to war with Poland, the UK is drawn in automatically. But, historically, the guarantee of Poland's frontiers didn't happen until 1939.

But don't suppose that the UK would automatically side with the USSR vs Italy. The UK made the "Gentleman's Agreement" with Italy in 1937 which acknowledged each other's position in the Med. And the UK nearly declared war on the USSR when they attacked Finland and appeared to be an ally of Germany. Basically, the British are suspicious of all foreigners and would be fairly happy to go to war with any and all of them. Especially the French!

Andrew

 

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Originally posted by redawn
Especially the French!

Well of course.

 

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Could you then please tell me why the people of UK would be so furious (40 dissent is a lot) about UK dowing Italy when Italy clearly is an Axis power?

Because they are democratic state and no one is willing to die in some stupid war unless attacked (especially after WWI), half of world in that time where under fascist/dictatorship governments and no one cared about that. Look today, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan and half of USA allies are countries under dictatorship and no personal freedoms what we enjoy in west and is anyone attacking them? If Irak didn’t have oil and even today Sadam would be in power and killing Kurds and political enemies and no one would give a shit for them. That’s called democracy don’t go in war unless attacked (except USA)

TOM_HR

 

[Janster]

hmm

Predicting public sentiment is a hard thing, as such saying that a democracy doesn't go to war is a bit tough cookie to swallow.

What I would like to say is that a UK dow on Italy would heavily depend on their situation, but I do remember England threatning the Finns when they joined the Axis, even though their cause was 'rightous' in many ways..

Right or wrong, the situation is that the heavy penalty gives the Italians a political freedom of movement, that might be a bit hard to predict what the allies would do with.

Though, here is my view why the dissent is on the allies, as they are currently enganged in a war they were actually having trouble coping with, it was not very likly they would like to engage another major power, if we like to call the Italians that, without there being major trouble in the parliament.

I think thought that allied dissent penalty should decrease in the course of the war instead, but this is for HOI 2.
As for not allowing the Italians to remain neutral while at war with Russia, hmm..I don't know, maybe not, but definetly they should be able to remain neutral while not at war.

Janster

 

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Originally posted by Tom_HR
Because they are democratic state and no one is willing to die in some stupid war unless attacked (especially after WWI), half of world in that time where under fascist/dictatorship governments and no one cared about that. Look today, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan and half of USA allies are countries under dictatorship and no personal freedoms what we enjoy in west and is anyone attacking them? If Irak didn’t have oil and even today Sadam would be in power and killing Kurds and political enemies and no one would give a shit for them. That’s called democracy don’t go in war unless attacked (except USA)

TOM_HR

I am not sure what you are talking about. I am discussing a certain scenario (see my posts above) which I think the HoI mechanics handles badly.

 

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Re: hmm

Originally posted by Janster
Predicting public sentiment is a hard thing, as such saying that a democracy doesn't go to war is a bit tough cookie to swallow.

What I would like to say is that a UK dow on Italy would heavily depend on their situation, but I do remember England threatning the Finns when they joined the Axis, even though their cause was 'rightous' in many ways..

Right or wrong, the situation is that the heavy penalty gives the Italians a political freedom of movement, that might be a bit hard to predict what the allies would do with.

Though, here is my view why the dissent is on the allies, as they are currently enganged in a war they were actually having trouble coping with, it was not very likly they would like to engage another major power, if we like to call the Italians that, without there being major trouble in the parliament.

I think thought that allied dissent penalty should decrease in the course of the war instead, but this is for HOI 2.
As for not allowing the Italians to remain neutral while at war with Russia, hmm..I don't know, maybe not, but definetly they should be able to remain neutral while not at war.

We seem to be pretty much on the same level here. Italy should definitely be allowed to be neutral. I am a little more convinced that Italy being at war only with SU is very unrealistic but hey, I can be persuaded if you bring reasonable arguments. A dissent hit on the allies if dowing Italy is reasonable as you say but it is to big right now as you also pointed out. That is why I want some kind of ruling.

Btw, I have never read anyone suggest that Italy shouldn't be allowed to be completely neutral.

 

[iBaLkiD]

Who cares about the speculation about dissent in real life. How bout seeing if some events can be added for multiplayer that make game play more enjoyable?