Definitive guide to buildings

[Kergan]

No amount of googling seems to yield a definitive guide to buildings. Even after 3.5k hours on EU4, and countless more hours on EU2 and EU3, I've yet to come across a sane procedure on whether to build buildings or not, and which ones.

This much I can tell:

- There is conflicting advice on the web related to whether to build things or not. Some revolve around fixed numbers (e.g. build only if you get .1 ducats per month back). Others revolve around ROI, but don't factor in the fact that production efficiency kicks in as tech progresses when computing the ROI of manufactories, workshops, and counting houses.

- If you look at the dev (multiplayer) clashes, you'll notice that a) the devs rarely build buildings; b) when they do it seems to be mostly temples, workshops, and barracks; c) they develop provinces very much like the AI (boosting their capital to whopping heights instead of spreading the development all over to 10/20/30 dev to get an extra building).

- If you look at videos from e.g. @DDRJake or @Florryworry_ playing, you'll note that they seldom if ever build a building either (in single player). DDRJake builds one every here and there when it seems really worth it. FlorryWorry is, well, constantly in debt and deficit so never really has enough to pay for buildings (except when going into yet more debt and abusing game mechanics).

- If you focus on buildings to max out your economy (in a grow your economy to build more troops kind of way, as is nearly always recommended in guides) you'll eventually reach a point where you'll be investing ducats upon ducats to swim in yet more ducats upon ducats, with no real point unless you're trying to reach max money.

- Looking at dev clashes, it seems common to field 200k+ men armies in multiplayer games by the early 18th century. Which kind of seems ludicrous for a single player gamer, considering how a 100k army will easily let you plow through a 300k Ottoman, Russia, or Ming in single player. But I can imagine it's useful.

- Various MP guides, as well as commentary on dev clashes, stress the importance of manpower above all else. Which seems odd for one that plays single player, but I'll take their word for it.

At any rate, I was wondering... Is there a sane, sensible, and reasonably authoritative guide to EU4 buildings that hasn't been written by a beginner (read: someone with > 2k hours playing)?

FWIW my own build order is something like:

Early game:

1. (Where relevant) Marketplace, Fort
2. Temple, workshop, barracks where sensible (.10 ducats/month, 500 manpower)

From manufactories onward:

1. (Where relevant) Marketplace, Fort
2. Manufactory, workshop
3. a) If territory then shipyard, regimental camp, barracks, workshop, temple
3. b) Else if coastal then shipyard, barracks, regimental camp
3. c) Else regimental camp, barracks
4. Temple

The rational being:

- More force limit = more mercs, therefor force limits > manpower
- Force limit = pointless without money to pay for troops
- Even manufactories + counting houses on low value goods pay for themselves in short order once production efficiency is high enough

But even after having played this many hours, I'll confess that I still hesitate from time to time over whether this or that building should get built.

What's your formula/algorithm in single player? And more interestingly to me, in multiplayer?

 

[Kergan]

[Reserved for a future summary in case there is any kind of of consensus on this topic]

 

[SolSys]

... Others revolve around ROI, but don't factor in the fact that production efficiency kicks in as tech progresses when computing the ROI of manufactories, workshops, and counting houses.

You can use the link at the bottom.
Just enter all the relevant data and it will do the math.

 

[Kergan]

@SolSys Your spreadsheets are helpful but if I'm not mistaken the manufactories part doesn't factor in the ever increasing production efficiency, or the fact that you also gain trade value from the extra goods produced.

 

[bly08]

They way I do it for non hordes is:

Temples first because they pay off the fastest, the lower the income the longer it takes for them to pay off, can get a feel for the optimal cutoff by considering how much you plan on expanding. As 1.22 Ottomans I go no lower than .12/.13.

Workshops in all provinces with valuable trade goods, the order depends on autonomy/future autonomy and trade good price events.

Manufactories everywhere and as soon as possible. It's worth it to take out loans if you can expand fast enough or want to have to the most income possible by a certain time. But in general they're not worth going into debt to build.

No marketplace or force limit buildings. Only enough universities for age objective and institution spread. Destroy force limit buildings for workshop/manufactories.

Barracks when short on manpower and if there's nothing else to build.

Churches for conversion or if there's nothing else to build.

No forts until the end of a WC. Keep enemy forts that are well placed. In end game you can make fort borders around big countries to keep their army from running away.

The most important factors to consider are blobbing pace and ROI timing. No buildings for hordes.

 

[Cookiepie]

I'm fairly well versed in the subject, but wouldnt want to plague you with a <2k guide^^.

With that said, half the advice from the guy above is outright wrong or too general (same for your conclusions), if we're talking single player. Multiplayer it doesnt apply for at all, and it's also worth mentioning that a fair number of mp mods tweak or add buildings.

 

[bly08]

It's for single player. I'm interested to know where I'm wrong.

 

[StefanFan]

1. (Where relevant) Marketplace, Fort

No forts until the end of a WC. Keep enemy forts that are well placed. In end game you can make fort borders around big countries to keep their army from running away.

Forts seem to be the losers of all buildings, for too many players, even in most of the big overhaul mods, if not all. @Kergan , could you elaborate a bit where is relevant for you to build forts? And if you could give a rough percentage or figure? Just curiosity. I see forts as a tax and trading boost due to a garrison that enforces the law and protects trade, generally speaking, so they should offer bigger incentives to be built.

 

[Celdur]

In Very Hard single player, manpower is also King, since everyone has +50% manpower and +50% land forcelimit (except you). That experience takes you close to the Multiplayer feel, except for the shenanigans and betrayals, but the AI will attack you if you show even a hint of weakness.

 

[bbqftw]

The reason that there are few systematic guides to building (at least for SP) is that spending your cash on mercenaries is probably going to give you a higher rate of return than any building can realistically give you.

Remember, the rate of return on "not dying" is infinite, and in VH there are a lot of situations where you just have to grind out the requisite wars with loans + mercs to secure a position (at the absolute top level players like Atwix show you the power of full loaning -> bankruptcy, pulling off miraculous war wins)

The only times when I build buildings is when I'm screwing around and intentionally playing tallish, and I pretty much have never built buildings on VH in any dangerous start besides institution spreads and the universities for age of absolutism bonuses. If you want to climb out of the hole its time to loan hard (fight to increase loan size -> restructure loans, repeat) and its only until 1650s at best when you can really pay off those loans (or not...)

Then again, I play a very aggressive pre-1600, even if you want to WC that's not necessary. EmpressKaori plays pretty tall style and goes into 1600 with perfectly WC-capable position. You will have a stronger econ base going into the admin efficiency times, no AE buildup issues, etc.

Finally consider that if you spend your available cash on buildings with a sub 3% rate of return, then are forced to take a loan at 3% interest, you've basically thrown away some money.

 

[Incompetent]

Maybe borrowing for buildings starts to make sense at around 2% interest? I haven't done detailed calculations, but this is the rough feel I get from the better economic buildings. This is of course assuming you're in a position to keep borrowing for troops etc as needed as well.

If you go full Florrynomics and reach 0.25% interest rate with double loan size, then you have a ridiculously large supply of money and it makes sense to spend it on pretty much anything that boosts your income. But I'm not sure how much it's worth sacrificing to get to that point. For most countries, 1-2% interest rate is much less of a stretch, but still pretty powerful.

Then again, I play a very aggressive pre-1600, even if you want to WC that's not necessary. EmpressKaori plays pretty tall style and goes into 1600 with perfectly WC-capable position. You will have a stronger econ base going into the admin efficiency times, no AE buildup issues, etc.

Hadn't heard of EmpressKaori before, but now I'm looking forward to her EU4 strategy guide, which I gather will place a strong emphasis on how to do 'going tall' correctly. Presumably, good use of buildings is a key part of that.

 

[Laurent1944]

In valuable provinces (high dev or high value production), I will build temple and/or workshop ASAP. Both have the same price, and workshops are usually more interesting because they give money twice: 1) with the produced goods, 2) with the trade generated. So if you control most of the trade of the node of the province, and of the next nodes up to the end one, you can generate much more money than what is shown by the interface. To keep it simple, I use a +50% bonus to show trade revenue. A check of the wiki will also show you which high value goods will see their price rise by events later. Same applies to manufactories when available. Cathedrals are usually not worth it.

As soon as I began to swim into money, I will build shipyards/force limit buildings everywhere I have available slots, especially in small fish and grain provinces.

Buildings giving trade powers are not so useful because they don't create money, but enable you to catch a greater part of the money generated by the trade (this money being generated by produced tools mainly, and secondary by trade transfer that will create some added value). So they are not my priority, except in Trade company land where they will allow to reach 51% faster and so have an extra merchant.

I personnally built forts, not tons of them but certainly some each game, especially in mountains or islands (for example Aland islands between Sweden and Finland). On the other hand, I usually unbuilt outdated forts I take from the IA.

I build buildings giving manpower in high dev province (basically if one level of building is giving 750 men or more). On the other hand I have never built buildings to increase the number of my sailors.

 

[Incompetent]

In valuable provinces (high dev or high value production), I will build temple and/or workshop ASAP. Both have the same price, and workshops are usually more interesting because they give money twice: 1) with the produced goods, 2) with the trade generated.

Workshops don't generate any trade value. 'Production efficiency' increases the money you make directly from production, nothing else. The name is misleading because it has nothing to do with how good you are at producing goods, only how good you are at extracting money from the production of goods.

'Goods produced', however, does feed into the trade system. This is why manufactories (or DIP development) are such a big deal. Multipliers to goods produced are fairly rare, but powerful if you can get them.

 

[Kergan]

Forts seem to be the losers of all buildings, for too many players, even in most of the big overhaul mods, if not all. @Kergan , could you elaborate a bit where is relevant for you to build forts? And if you could give a rough percentage or figure? Just curiosity. I see forts as a tax and trading boost due to a garrison that enforces the law and protects trade, generally speaking, so they should offer bigger incentives to be built.

I somewhat agreed that forts aren't that useful in single player games. (I tend to keep them around until rebels go away and then only keep them on my border.)

But for multiplayer games, I quite vividly recollect seeing a dev clash game with France, Great Britain, Burgundy, and Prussia loaded up with level 8 forts. Here's a screenshot of France:

 

[makaramus]

I using forts if war is gonna happen in too wide area only and never else...

as example when I was rebuilding rome as aragon spain (didnt vassalize byzantium) I rushed north africa and conquered mamluks until meeting ottoman when I take jerusalem

I vassalized remainings of hungary and conquered his cores back from poland

now I wanted to fight with ottoman at balkans because provinces I got there were richer and desired to protect that area... so I decided to build level 8 forts all around jerusalem(builty 10 of them) and sent all my army to balkans... ottoman tried to siege them but only managed to do 4 of them until I sieged their capital

I mean... they are good if you need to control and decide where to fight other? they are thrash other than this in single player

 

[Bibor]

Here's my definitive guide to early buildings:

Temples where it says 0.20 or more.
Workshops where it says 0.18 or more.
Marketplaces where it says +10 or more.
Manufactories where it says 0.35 or more.
Barracks where it says 800 or more.

If I really have a lot of cash at hand, I go 10-20 % below these values (so temples at 0.18, marketplaces at +8 etc.)

 

[Vulkandrache]

Temples where it says 0.20 or more.

At 0,10 or more is better if you have the money.
Having Temples in every state province as the Ottomans by like 1480 is perfectly doable.
But i also dont go too agressive early on.

Workshops where it says 0.18 or more.

Everywhere you would build a Manufactory aswell. So in pretty much every state province and every TC.

Marketplaces where it says +10 or more.

As handful of these around you main tradenode early on, maybe a handful for better GT spread.
They dont do anything anymore once you have conquered all the land around their tradenode.

Manufactories where it says 0.35 or more.

Every non-Grain, non-Fish and non-Wool tradegood thats in any way downstream from your Main tradenode.
Starting with states, going to TC and finishing of with everything else.
After you are done with 0% or 25% LA provinces open the macro builder and just go down the list to fill up the world if you have the money.

Barracks where it says 800 or more.

Or forcelimit building for more Mercs.
Everywhere with a building slow open after the 3 moneybuilding are done starting with the highest number.

If you look at the dev (multiplayer) clashes, you'll notice that a) the devs rarely build buildings; b) when they do it seems to be mostly temples, workshops, and barracks; c) they develop provinces very much like the AI (boosting their capital to whopping heights instead of spreading the development all over to 10/20/30 dev to get an extra building).

In Mp games your expansion is more limited which leaves more points for developing.
Many buildings are just not worth the money even if you have the slots for them.
And in Sp you can worry about RoI much more than in MP.

There is conflicting advice on the web related to whether to build things or not. Some revolve around fixed numbers (e.g. build only if you get .1 ducats per month back). Others revolve around ROI, but don't factor in the fact that production efficiency kicks in as tech progresses when computing the ROI of manufactories, workshops, and counting houses.

Factoring in PE is moot.
Properly build Manufacturies pay of well under 100 years. The 5% from tech arent going to reduce that by much if they happen within that window.

If you focus on buildings to max out your economy (in a grow your economy to build more troops kind of way, as is nearly always recommended in guides) you'll eventually reach a point where you'll be investing ducats upon ducats to swim in yet more ducats upon ducats, with no real point unless you're trying to reach max money.

I cant figure out why you bring that point as if its a big problem.
It might be something to be looked at in terms of balacing but not gameplay or guides.

If you look at videos from e.g. @DDRJake or @Florryworry_ playing, you'll note that they seldom if ever build a building either (in single player). DDRJake builds one every here and there when it seems really worth it. FlorryWorry is, well, constantly in debt and deficit so never really has enough to pay for buildings (except when going into yet more debt and abusing game mechanics).

I havent watched DDR properly in a while but Florry`s gameplay is actually terrible compared to his results while he`s streaming.
He plays wasteful, micros very little and min-maxes barely anything outside of the strange and unsual strategy hes pursuing at that moment.

I cringe every time he give some Silk province to the nobles while there`s perfectly viable Grain right next to it.

 

[SolSys]

@SolSys Your spreadsheets are helpful but if I'm not mistaken the manufactories part doesn't factor in the ever increasing production efficiency, or the fact that you also gain trade value from the extra goods produced.

Just enter all the relevant data and it will do the math.

You should pay attention to J3 - J7**.
It's an Excel sheet - it doesn't read your mind - so you need to input the data at the time to get the precise RoI for the time of the decision.


** J4 should also factor inflation.

 

[Incompetent]

- If you look at videos from e.g. @DDRJake or @Florryworry_ playing, you'll note that they seldom if ever build a building either (in single player). DDRJake builds one every here and there when it seems really worth it. FlorryWorry is, well, constantly in debt and deficit so never really has enough to pay for buildings (except when going into yet more debt and abusing game mechanics).

Florry deliberately plays fast and sloppy, for entertainment purposes. Probably he'd make tighter decisions and have less debt if he played slower, but that wouldn't be as fun to watch. Mainly his streams are proofs of concept, showing that some extreme plan is possible (along with showcasing various exploits along the way).

DDRJake these days doesn't min-max as much as he used to, going for a more 'relaxing' experience. He also deliberately handicaps himself with the 'no loans' rule, which effectively means he's playing on a challenge mode beyond Very Hard. That means he's extremely stingy by necessity (so e.g. he will value buildings, but only if somebody else builds them), because if he ever runs out of cash, he's in big trouble. I wouldn't take 'no loans mode' as a model of optimal economic play any more than Florryworry's style.

 

[Badesumofu]

It really depends on your play style, I think. Like the question of whether merc cannons are ever worth it, it depends on many factors.

I prefer to start my WC with a semi-tall style and a focus on building a rock somid base from which to explode in the later game. Buildings are really key to that approach.

While mercs to conquer something probably are better ROI most of the time, a one tag doesn't require perfect efficiency or anything close to it. So there is something to be said for playing in a way you enjoy. That said, buildings are rarely my priority. If I want to conquer something I'll do that rather than spend on buildings. Something like a Church in a 12 base tax province is probably built ASAP, but that's really an exception.