Define planet class and tolerance by traits, not a wheel; e.g. wet vs. dry, cold vs. hot

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mudcrabmerchant

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tl;dr: Define each planet class by two features, hot vs. cold and wet vs. dry, with a neutral value for each. Species have preferences for the features, or lack thereof, of their homeworld. Base habitability on feature preference. Make it moddable - let modders make new planet features that affect habitability. This will greatly help out modders who want to create more habitable planet classes.

Long version:

The current planet class system has some problems. Why would a species adapted to a hot and humid jungle fare better in a desert than on an ocean world? If I'm from an arid world, why will a continental world be worse for me than an arctic world?

I propose we ditch the wheel, and make a table. Each planet class will be have two features, hot vs. cold, and wet vs. dry.

Desert - dry and hot
Arid - dry
Tundra - dry and cold
Tropical - wet and hot
Ocean - wet
Arctic - wet and cold
Continental - all neutral

Graphically, in the empire creation menu, the dry and wet planet groups could be set in columns on either side of continental in the middle.

There would also be a neutral value for each. As before, a species' preference will match their homeworld, but now the effects will be modular. You get a big boost to habitability for each feature you prefer, minor penalties for neutral features if you have a particular preference, moderate penalties for a feature if you have neutral preference for that feature, and significant penalties to habitability features opposite your preference.

Gameplay wise, this will make planet adaptability for each species make more sense. Desert species will do good in deserts and arid, alright in continentals (like everyone will), and poorly elsewhere. Continentals will do great on continental worlds, and somewhat poorly-to-alright on all other worlds. It will also make your choice of homeworld into more than just picking which slice of the random-distribution pie you can eat - depending on feature distribution, you will be trading off higher speciality (do really well on a few planet types) vs. generality (do ok on more planet types).

Finally, moving to a modular planet class system will help modders. Let them create new planet features, with or without opposite or neutral values, and add them to existing and new planet classes. This will be a great boost to modders who want to create new world types. If I create a new world type, all I need to do is define which features it has, instead of editing habitability values for every type of homeworld.
 
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mergele

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Problems I see with the proposed system: I guess you would determine habitability by number of differing attributes. That would give arid and ocean a clear advantage since they have 3 other planet types with only 1 attribute difference, while continental has 2 and the rest either one or two, depending if we make it a torus or not. If it is a torus still same problem Since now arid and ocean have 4 planet types with only 1 difference. This could only be solved by filling all the possible cmbinations (neutral hot and neutral cold), but then modders would have an even harder time, because with every planet attribute you introduce you again would need to fill all the possible combinations if don't want to create an imbalance.
 
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benjaseth

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Two scales: Heat and Humidity

Heat level: Hot - Temperate - Cold
Humidity level: Wet - Moist - Dry

2 variables with 3 types each giving us 9 combinations,
and this model:

dry, hot - dry, temperate - dry, cold
moist, hot - moist, temperate - moist, cold
wet, hot - wet, temperate - wet, cold
=
desert - arid - tundra
(savannah) - forest* - (taiga)
tropical - ocean - arctic

* forest/continental

2 new planet types (savannah: moist and hot + taiga: moist and cold)
bridging the gaps, would give us a coherent model.

The "neutral" traits, moist and temperate
should be 'nerfed' for balance,
and representing the sensitive nature
of someone condition to a un-harsh environment.
A desert dweller would therefore do better in both Savannah
and Arid climates than a forest/continental dweller.

Still a lot of other biomes
that could be new planet types,
that wouldn't fit this model,
would have to make another even better one for those:
Swamp, rainforest, steppe, plains, garden-world, moor
mixed, prairie, jungle?, fjords (cold waters).
Could potentially add another middle level for each scale.
Fx: Dry-Moist-Wet-Water
With dry being badlands, moist being woodlands, wet being swamps and rainforests/jungles and water being Ocean islands and fjords.
Haven't really thought that one out yet.
 

benjaseth

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The Wet axis doesn't really work. There is much more water on a Ocean planet than a Tropical (jungle) planet.
And despite ice being frozen water, I would still imagine a jungle dweller having a harder time adapting to an Arctic environment,
than a desert dweller would have adapting to a tundra.
 

mudcrabmerchant

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The Wet axis doesn't really work. There is much more water on a Ocean planet than a Tropical (jungle) planet.
And despite ice being frozen water, I would still imagine a jungle dweller having a harder time adapting to an Arctic environment,
than a desert dweller would have adapting to a tundra.

I know, the more I thought about it, the more I realized that the current classes are difficult to fit into any system that requires even groupings and even relationships between them. It wouldn't make much more sense than the wheel we have now.

I think an ideal system is one where each planet type, or at least groupings of two types tops, are really their own thing, and homeworld choice really affects gameplay.

Well, you could still make a nice graphical arrangement, I think. What I'm envisioning is having two axes of extreme conditions (arid->desert and tundra->arctic) coming out of a center of "Gaia" worlds - worlds which are in a sweet spot that allows massive proliferation of life (Tropical, Continental, and Ocean).

Extreme worlds would be made more common relative to Gaia worlds, but given smaller max populations. Desert and Arctic species, at the far extremes, would get the ability to colonize barren and frozen worlds, respectively, after a certain tech; while Arid and Tundra species would be able to colonize both their respective extreme worlds, but also Continental worlds.

Each Gaia world would have it's own unique mechanics. All would be rare. Ocean worlds would have only a few tiles colonizable by all species, and have an absolutely massive amount of space available to Oceanic species, who would have high habitability on other Gaia worlds (due to extensive oceans) but zero habitability on any other worlds (no oceans).

Continental-grown species would be highly adaptive. They would be able to effectively colonize Tropical and Oceanic from the start, and Arid and Tundra later, but none of their potential colonies would have as many tiles as Oceanic species could get (because land is scarcer than water even on Continental worlds).

Tropical species would be less adaptive than Continentals, only being able to effectively colonize other Gaia worlds (and Arid and Tundra later at much lower adaptability levels), but would get free boosts to army combat ability, social science research, and reproduction rate (inspired by SF hell-worlds like 40k's Catachan, and the massive profusion of life in our real-life tropical rainforests).

But this is a much bigger change that shuffling around planet classes, and i would be a lot more work to implement.
 
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zukodark

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A more complex idea for homeworlds that I had, which probably suits more for a mod:
Planet Types.png
In essence, species would have a high habitable to neighboring climates. Volcanic, Oceanic, Frozen and Barren worlds would be unlocked only to their non-extreme counterparts. Continental worlds would be rarer than other planets, while the outlying types would be more common.​

Continental species could live on Savannas, Arboreals, Taigas and Steppes easily, and be reasonably okay at the other planets, excluding the extremes.

Arid species would be able to live on Desert, Steppe and Tundra world easily, be okay living at Barren, Volcanic, Savanna, Continental, Taiga and Arctic worlds.
Tropical species would have high habitability at Volcanic, Savanna, Arboreal and Archipelago worlds, and would be okay with Desert, Continental, Steppe, Taiga and Arctic Island worlds.

With all these changes, the result would be:
Continental: 4 high habitability, 8 low habitability - Can colonize most planets, uncommon main planet type.
Moderates: 6 high habitability, 3 low habitability - Highest amount of good planets, moderate main planet type.
Mixed: 4 high habitability, 5 low habitability - Decent amount of good planets, common main planet type.
Focused: 3 high habitability, 6 low habitability - Lowest amount of good planets, common main planet type, and an exclusive category.
 
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WhiteWeasel

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Sounds a lot like the planet class system Endless Space 2 is going to use.
aY0CI0V.jpg
 

ztaesek

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Can we just go away from using the concept of terrain type for whether or not a species can settle a planet? If you are playing Humans at the start, then it makes absolutely no sense that they can't settle a Tropical world or a Desert world. If you can travel the stars, then you can definitely settle in an Arctic world!

What really should be taken into account is the concentration of oxygen in the atmosphere and the barometric pressure in which they thrive. That should determine the habitability of a planet on a wheel and not the type of native flora/fauna.
 
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Seomis

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Conflating planet habitability with "climate" creates all sorts of problems. It does seem to be a trope in science fiction that almost every planet has only one climate (Tatooine: desert! Hoth: Arctic!), but it's not a very good trope. :p
 
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mudcrabmerchant

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Can we just go away from using the concept of terrain type for whether or not a species can settle a planet? If you are playing Humans at the start, then it makes absolutely no sense that they can't settle a Tropical world or a Desert world. If you can travel the stars, then you can definitely settle in an Arctic world!

What really should be taken into account is the concentration of oxygen in the atmosphere and the barometric pressure in which they thrive. That should determine the habitability of a planet on a wheel and not the type of native flora/fauna.

Remember that habitability primarily affects happiness.

Yes, right now I could permanently live in Death Valley or northern Siberia... but would I want to? Would most humans want to? What if the conditions are so severe that for 90% of the year I need to remain in habitat domes?
 
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ztaesek

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Remember that habitability primarily affects happiness.

Yes, right now I could permanently live in Death Valley or northern Siberia... but would I want to? Would most humans want to? What if the conditions are so severe that for 90% of the year I need to remain in habitat domes?

If it was only happiness, then there wouldn't be the need for a technology to unlock it. If a habitat dome is all that is needed, then we can do that with pre-space faring technology already. This is why I'm arguing for the type of planets to be differentiated from climate. And making it habitable outside of dome would be terraforming, which is completely different from settling it with habitat domes. As Seomis stated, it's a trope in science fiction and not a very good one.

By making it based on the atmosphere and pressure, you are creating techs that are basically material questions in creating the right allows, breathers, suits and ventilation to create livable environments. We have evidence that on Earth around 280 million years ago the atmosphere reached 30% oxygen levels before reducing down to the 20% that we have now. And settling Mars is not a question of desert planet versus continental planet, it's a question of creating habitable areas on the planet, because humans won't be breathing that 95% Carbon Dioxide air.

The other option is just completely removing those techs from the tree and letting everyone settle every planet type to begin with. It'd definitely alter the expansion path of the all nations, but could be interesting.
 
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Pink Zeppelin

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If it was only happiness, then there wouldn't be the need for a technology to unlock it. If a habitat dome is all that is needed, then we can do that with pre-space faring technology already. This is why I'm arguing for the type of planets to be differentiated from climate. And making it habitable outside of dome would be terraforming, which is completely different from settling it with habitat domes. As Seomis stated, it's a trope in science fiction and not a very good one.

By making it based on the atmosphere and pressure, you are creating techs that are basically material questions in creating the right allows, breathers, suits and ventilation to create livable environments. We have evidence that on Earth around 280 million years ago the atmosphere reached 30% oxygen levels before reducing down to the 20% that we have now. And settling Mars is not a question of desert planet versus continental planet, it's a question of creating habitable areas on the planet, because humans won't be breathing that 95% Carbon Dioxide air.

The other option is just completely removing those techs from the tree and letting everyone settle every planet type to begin with. It'd definitely alter the expansion path of the all nations, but could be interesting.

I agree, but with the slight alteration that it might be even better if it could impact not just happiness, but overall population growth, and even add evolution to the mix, well, more than just the random chance for them to genetically alter themselves.
 

zukodark

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I see planet biomes as being largely important in defining the personality of a species. Seeing as there are so few other things contributing to this, removing planet biomes would cripple your ability to see your different species as unique.

Perhaps they could keep the current planet wheel (or something slightly better) and habitability working on happiness (to a lower effect than now), and rather add something in addition, where you pick one planet class or something, and be required to research technologies to colonize planets of other classes. These planet classes would incorporate atmosphere, gravity, pressure, etc. This way, we would keep the personality of the current system, while adding another more realistic system.
 

Pink Zeppelin

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I see planet biomes as being largely important in defining the personality of a species. Seeing as there are so few other things contributing to this, removing planet biomes would cripple your ability to see your different species as unique.

Perhaps they could keep the current planet wheel (or something slightly better) and habitability working on happiness (to a lower effect than now), and rather add something in addition, where you pick one planet class or something, and be required to research technologies to colonize planets of other classes. These planet classes would incorporate atmosphere, gravity, pressure, etc. This way, we would keep the personality of the current system, while adding another more realistic system.
They could also add buffs and debuffs for combat, seeing how I would imagine that if you are fighting on a planet that is completely different from your homeworld, it might be a bit tough.
 

GC13

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Problems I see with the proposed system: I guess you would determine habitability by number of differing attributes. That would give arid and ocean a clear advantage since they have 3 other planet types with only 1 attribute difference, while continental has 2 and the rest either one or two, depending if we make it a torus or not.
That's true, but only if going from neutral to either extreme is the same as going from either of those extremes to neutral. If going from neutral to an extreme was a more severe penalty, then their versatility would be countered by their inability to settle any other planets particularly well. Then we'd all be here discussing if the penalty difference was too much, not enough, or just right, but at least the balance would have been attempted.
 

ztaesek

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I'm starting to lean towards just getting rid of the need for technology to colonize the planets while keeping the wheel. That way there are preferences and habitability reductions but things are still colonizable. This keeps the changes simple.
 

Pink Zeppelin

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zukodark

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View attachment 198999
What about this? Diagonal could count for the spikes and corners, and after that, the rest would be easily balanced. In addition, the spikes could be 0 habitability for forest preference.

View attachment 199000
View attachment 199001
View attachment 199002
View attachment 199004

Forest: 4 green, 4 yellow, 4 red. - Decent colonization of non-extremes.
Near-mid: 4 green, 3 yellow, 2 orange, 3 red. - Colonization of most types of planets.
Corners: 4 green, 3 yellow, 2 orange, 3 red. - Colonization of most types of planets.
Spikes: 3 green, 4 yellow, 2 orange, 3 red. - Colonization of three extremes.