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Hansag

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Just wondering if this has been shown or discussed.

When you ask a command to plan for an attack, your units are pressed up against the other belligerent and you can see how it plans to move forward.

How about planning for a withdrawal. Will you still see this and will you still get a bonus when fighting a withdrawal action? Will the line still hold as your units make their way towards the new defensive line in the rear (or create that calderon in which to envelop the enemy)?

Or will your units just route and make a run for the new line?
 
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I cant know it for sure, but i am certain that if you draw an defensive line and tell them to fall back to it, it will be an organized retreat, where the AI lefts units at the front delaying the enemy while the rest are retreating and setting up in their defensive position.
 
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The current planning system, having only an attack bonus and no system for defence bonus could screw with one of the fundamentals or war. The old, tried and tested true-ism that for similar forces a minimum of a 3:1 superiority is preferred for attack.

80% attack bonus for planning and something like 10 or 20% dug in seen as the balance for defending sounds off to me.

I'd say that dug in should be one bonus, and a planned defence should be able to add to that. More entrenchment, defensive fires planned; avenues of approach scouted; preparations to channel attackers and effectively mount local counter attacks, etc etc etc, Would be viable bonus for defensive plans that are not in the game.
 
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The current planning system, having only an attack bonus and no system for defence bonus could screw with one of the fundamentals or war. The old, tried and tested true-ism that for similar forces a minimum of a 3:1 superiority is preferred for attack.

80% attack bonus for planning and something like 10 or 20% dug in seen as the balance for defending sounds off to me.

I'd say that dug in should be one bonus, and a planned defence should be able to add to that. More entrenchment, defensive fires planned; avenues of approach scouted; preparations to channel attackers and effectively mount local counter attacks, etc etc etc, Would be viable bonus for defensive plans that are not in the game.

I agree 100%. On paper it sounds really off. I guess we will see how it goes once the game is released.
 
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As Defender, you get entrenchment, crossing and territory bonus. So attacking is in most cases costlier than defending. Additionally, moving Units lose ORG. This is of course issue to balancing, but as far as I saw in WWW, it seems okay right now; at least not totally off.

I believe tha fallback line works in the way, that Units retreating will gather there. This does not mean that your front line collapses immediately, since reserves might still hold it. Whether there is a point where units capable of fighting retreat to the fallback line due to strategic considerations is unclear to me.
 

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IIRC Terrain (rivers etc.) and forts give defenders pretty big bonuses (+60% me thinks?). I'm all for making a balanced game between offense and defense.

Always found it questionable in the first WWW that the great alpine fortress Switzerland fell to the Germans without much of a fight.
 
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Agreed that balancing offence and defence is the key. But locally, attacks should be more costly in most cases for similar forces. (Blitzkreig, or deep battle, achieved their spectacular gains operationally; not in the breakthrough battles.)

Soviets learnt the lesson well. WW2 taught them to try for 6 or 9:1 local superiority in attack. Look at most battles: losses in attack were bad.

Game has a planning system. Why not use it for defence planning too. Planning for Front line; fall-back line; third line and hard points; and even counter attack lines would be a good addition to my mind. And an addition that is congruent with one Hoi4's major systems.
 
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The current planning system, having only an attack bonus and no system for defence bonus could screw with one of the fundamentals or war. The old, tried and tested true-ism that for similar forces a minimum of a 3:1 superiority is preferred for attack.

80% attack bonus for planning and something like 10 or 20% dug in seen as the balance for defending sounds off to me.

I'd say that dug in should be one bonus, and a planned defence should be able to add to that. More entrenchment, defensive fires planned; avenues of approach scouted; preparations to channel attackers and effectively mount local counter attacks, etc etc etc, Would be viable bonus for defensive plans that are not in the game.
The defense is balanced by the bonus terrain and rivers give for example. 20% dig in bonus + 60% river crossing is an huge bonus that wont decay over time like the planning bonus does.
 
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The defense is balanced by the bonus terrain and rivers give for example. 20% dig in bonus + 60% river crossing is an huge bonus that wont decay over time like the planning bonus does.

Sort of. Rivers and forest are give defence bonus, bravo. Keep that to some extent.

Now imagine a front line that is a province, 2 or three ahead of a major river. From what I have seen, without defence planning in the game there's no easy way to tell a FM or General to use the river and forest for main defence not the border a province ahead.

Plus, having a bonus for river and trees etc does not negate why an incorporated defence and counter attack bonus would be good gaming to my mind.

Heck, the second half of WW2, the major German Doctrinal practice was quick counter attack, tactical and operational.
 
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Sort of. Rivers and forest are give defence bonus, bravo. Keep that to some extent.

Now imagine a front line that is a province, 2 or three ahead of a major river. From what I have seen, without defence planning in the game there's no easy way to tell a FM or General to use the river and forest for main defence not the border a province ahead.

Plus, having a bonus for river and trees etc does not negate why an incorporated defence and counter attack bonus would be good gaming to my mind.

Heck, the second half of WW2, the major German Doctrinal practice was quick counter attack, tactical and operational.
You can draw defensive lines, just as you can draw offensive ones. Simply draw an defensive line behind the river and they will get into position there and dig in.
 
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You can draw defensive lines, just as you can draw offensive ones. Simply draw an defensive line behind the river and they will get into position there and dig in.
Only difference is that you do not get a planning bonus when the plan consists only of "holding the line" or a fallback line. I don't think this puts a heavy burden on defence.
 

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there are also doctrines that increase the maximum entrenchment bonus, i believe the early "grand battleplan" tree has some of these in it. Not to mention terrain, rivers, forts, and the ability to launch counter attacks even while being on the defensive. its hard to just draw a line in the sand and hold it like say, World war 1 trench warfare because WW2 is a much different environment.

the advantage is with the attacker, even if the attacker is the defender basically :)
 

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the advantage is with the attacker, even if the attacker is the defender basically :)

Could you explain why you think so? Given all these bonusses you mentioned, i am pretty sure that a well prepared defensive line makes up for the planning bonus. I do agree that the attacker has the advantage of the initiative (and that's good), but if we focus on the bonus assigned in game mechanics, I believe he will have smaller ones most of the times. I believe this is supported by the WWW we saw; I remember many instances in which defenders had better combat stats (not the chinese obviously), and only got defeated because the attacker just had more troops or managed to encircle them.
 

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Could you explain why you think so? Given all these bonusses you mentioned, i am pretty sure that a well prepared defensive line makes up for the planning bonus. I do agree that the attacker has the advantage of the initiative (and that's good), but if we focus on the bonus assigned in game mechanics, I believe he will have smaller ones most of the times. I believe this is supported by the WWW we saw; I remember many instances in which defenders had better combat stats (not the chinese obviously), and only got defeated because the attacker just had more troops or managed to encircle them.

the attacker gets to choose the tempo, they decide where the battle is fought on a defensive line, and they get to concentrate their forces. you certainly don't have to remove a defensive line to defeat it, just to break through at 1 or 2 key points and the defenders are forced to adapt to your attacks, because if they don't you will encircle them and cut their supply off. they are forced to launch attacks of their own to try to close your breakthroughs or they will have to fall back and fight a retreating battle.

on top of that, the longer the defensive line is, the harder it is to have your veteran fast response troops in key locations, you can't defend everywhere with your best troops, but the attacker gets to attack wherever they want with their best troops at the locations they decide at the weakest / have the most favourable terrain.

its more of a strategic advantage than a pure "i have more combat modifiers" though, its slightly more intangible. so when you say that the defenders had better combat stats but got defeated by encirclement, thats the reason why attacking is better, you don't have to overcome a heavily foritified position (like say, the maginot) if you can encircle it.

its harder to visualise with world war wednesday though, its a real mobile warfare idea and both china and japan are fighting with barely any supply and equipment with (nearly, theres some cav and like 2 motorised) infantry armies with basically no air force and no tanks to speak of. if they were of equal quality and both having ample equipment it'd be a real slow grinding blood bath that would favour the defenders attrition wise, you're not wrong on that count either.
 
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kalauer

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I totally agree on your presentation of the inherent benefit of offensive, but that's not a problem. On the contrary, it's great this is represented in HoI4. There are games out there that fail to do so.

But I also don't think that defensive planning should prvide bonusses because defensive planning kind of includes all of what was mentioned: using favorable terrain, building fortifications, have supporting troops etc. We do not need an abstract bonus to cover this because it is all in the game, explicitly.