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BuddyLove

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I find they scale too quickly, decay too slowly, and make far too much of the game sitting and waiting to be fun so I turn them off now.

Anecdotally I've found less big blobs with them off- not sure why?

Perhaps HRE or the other big guys join the pacts and they effectively use them to keep anyone else from rising to change them?

So you end up with very small realms being picked off by massive ones and very massive realms big enough to not worry about threat, while the medium sized realms (where I tend to end up) can't do anything?
 

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Does it? In my lastest game I had pacts enabled and this happened anyway.

The difference is that happening from a 769 start with them on and a 1066 start with them off.

I always leave them on, but that's because I tend to play small/medium and don't expand without a sure plan. I can time out my expansion to just hit the pact limit before I'm ready for a consolidation phase, where my threat dips again while I upgrade holdings and save up cash for my next round of wars.
 

jwalche

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If you're playing pagan get your retinues up and have them going into the enemy's territory and then declare war like a day or two before they enter the county. I normally win before anyone else gets close.

Good strategy! Let me add using your tributaries if you have them. With a small start, I usually have 8~9k tributaries army when I only have 1~2k levy left out of my 5k cap, and less than 1k retinue.

It is much more powerful to make most of your neighboring chiefs and petty kings as your tributaries than annexing them. I would only use a few border dispute or county conquest CBs so I can reach more neighbors for tributary CB for benefits including;

1. Newly annexed your realm counties suffer severe penalty while your new tributaries' levy will replenish much faster.
2. Your vassals can refuse to join your wars while your tributaries can't.
3. Adding tributaries doesn't increase threat level, and you can annex them much later when your threat level is already at 100%.
4. Your tributaries won't mind if you become a bit tyrannical to your subjects, and be forced to join you if your own vassals ever revolt.
5. Tributary CB are free to call and you get 200 prestige from winning one, which you can use to call other CBs that cost heavy prestige - such as force vassalization CB at 250 for a count and 1000 for a duke.

Now you have a huge tributary allies. To use their army as your pseudo retinue, first declare war to a small enemy and call all your tributaries and vassals to the war. Wait till all their army is attached to your tiny retinue. Spread out your 150 retinue units so they can have several rally points. While waiting for that, after your allied armies started to move to your retinue units, you can raise and send your levy to actually fight that small war.

This strategy makes the new prestige retinue system as good or even better than the old 2500 a pop tribal event army, even when you have only one retinue unit with 150 men. If you have to enter peace for whatever reasons, your prestige retinue stays and your ally army can be called and attached again, where your event army would be gone forever.

Without ending the small war, disband your levy and march now 10k stack to your main enemy. Or 2 5k stacks. You can't separate attached armies into smaller groups. But they initially attached your multiple retinue units and you don't have to combine them.

When your 10k stack is one day away from crossing border to your main enemy, a large pagan kingdom for subjugation CB maybe, finally declare war to him, and call all your tributaries and vassals to the new war. Wait a week or two until they all answer the call. Now their armies will remain attached to your tiny retinue even if you finish the first war which actually called them. By keeping an unended small war somewhere, you can keep all your tributary armies as if they are your own retinue.

By the time your own retinue got bigger and your levy replenished from it's initial wars which created all those tributaries, your tributary army must have suffered a lot of battles and became pretty smaller. Especially if you stormed, as you should, those last few castles instead of slowly sieging them because those are mostly your allies' men and not yours.

What you got from them is all they had, because unlike feudal vassal levy, your allies send every men they have when called. So they got quite weak while you got stronger. The last major subjugation war made you a King. Your once ducal tributaries have served you for 5 years which was length of the truce, and are ready to be released and be forced to be your vassal for a 1000 prestige CB each.

It is time to turncoat. Do it one petty king at a time and fight with your levy helped by your still remaining tributaries, starting with the strongest. When your main war was near end, you could have called another small war, calling everyone except your strongest tributary, and end the first war. One the same day the main war is one, that tributary's army part of your stack will still be there for that day unless you exit the game.

If you release tributary and call war to it immediately, it will turn hostile and attack the rest of your allies, which is bigger (if not you should have already sent more retinue and even mercs, but not own levy) and may enjoy defensive terrain bonus, winning the decisive battle quickly to substantially raise your war score immediately. From your home, now you can call your rested levy since the betrayal war is already declared, and march it to his undefended capital.

It's cowardice. But if your largest tributary is a blobbed huge duke that you could only win the war by attacking it while it was fighting a major war of its own, which made his realm several times larger than your realm, you need all it takes to bring stability to your new kingdom. Young Wolf wouldn't have been murdered with his mother, wife, and unborn child if he was smarter. As good as the strong tributary is for now, it will be automatically released with your character's death.

There is no tyranny or revolt with tributaries. When the ducal tributaries are all vassalized by force, demand your count tributaries to be vassalized peacefully. Most of them will accept within a month if not immediately. The left will still be your tributaries and forced to send 100% of their levy whenever called to a war. For this, you don't need to release them first at 200 prestige each.
 
Last edited:

Sonmi

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I like the concept, but feel they are quite unbalanced at the moment.

A better way to combat blobbing would be to limit defensive pacts to religious groups only, and put cooldowns on spammable CBs (Conquest and Holy War) as far as I am concerned.
 

knppel

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I leave them on, didn't try without since their introduction. Balance issues or not, the world not ganging up on would-be-conquerors was as glorious as it was a no-brainer.
And as others said, often enough this is the only option to try to put up a defense to big mighty epanding AI neighbours for a player starting out small.

In regards for vassals, Vassal wars add up to Liege threat, there can not be pacts against vassals, and vassals cannot join coalitions.
 

iniudan

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Yeah, I don't mind the idea in theory, but in practice threat accumulates way too quickly. Take a single duchy and you get the notification about pacts forming. So usually I turn them off

How quick pack form depend on your realm size, basically everyone who as a smaller realm size then your realm_size * threat_% can form defensive pack against you, which once you are really large basically mean everyone join the moment you accumulate any threat.
 
Last edited:

jwalche

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peasant revolts are great for that tribal strategy because your vassals seem to be more willing to come against the rabble than for your conquests.

Unfortunately, it doesn't work. Peasant wars can be ended against your decision.

When you collect 10 small tributaries, because winning each gives +10 opinion for your vassals, they become very royal and send all their troops.

But really, your main force in the small start is not your vassals but tributaries. Newly added counties don't give you much for a while. Once you become a king, you can diplomatically take them without such penalty.

And you really don't want a pagan defensive pact when you are just ready to call your Subjugation CB on Bulgaria, and become a king Subjugation CB to bunch of dukedoms from your new capital.
 

Lord Finnish

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I want to use them but every time I do I end up massively regretting it. The mechanics just aren't enjoyable to me.

I prefer playing with defensive pacts off and either declaring several wars at once or transitioning to retinues only in mid to late game.
 

fleetothemoon

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I keep it off. There is pretty much nothing about defensive pacts that appeals to me.

If I want to stay small and be contained, I will just stay small. If I want to blob, it's not going to stop me aside from just annoying me or making me do boring exploits to achieve the same thing.

I also don't want to prevent the formation of large AI blobs. I like the challenges of dealing with a large blob. If a blob is too big and I'm too close to annihilation, I submit and bide my time. I tend to be all like "IDGAF if you take all my vassal's land" as long as I can keep my core demesne which I spend tens of thousands of ducats to upgrade.

As long as I can keep my core duchy and pump out 20-30k levy, I will be in a good position to recover or destroy the subjugating empire from within.
 

Furleppe

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Yeah, I feel like they should add more game rules for defensive pacts like allow us to disable religious groups banding together againts you (like that mod posted above). It's a good mechanic in theory but meh in practice.
 

Sunbro BigBoss

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I'd like defensive pacts to feel more 'dangerous', if that makes sense. Overstepping your boundaries in EU4 can mean a thorough dismantling of yor country as an example, but in CK2 you need only wait - that means it bogs down your game without bringing any excitement.
 

Castios

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I'd like defensive pacts to feel more 'dangerous', if that makes sense. Overstepping your boundaries in EU4 can mean a thorough dismantling of yor country as an example, but in CK2 you need only wait - that means it bogs down your game without bringing any excitement.

They should either reduce the waiting period, to like 150 months at most and not 320 months which is insane, or they should improve our chancellor ability to reduce threat, because even with him doing this nonstop you have to wait like 30 years to reduce threat from 100 to 0, doing pretty much nothing in the meantime...
 

Sunbro BigBoss

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They should either reduce the waiting period, to like 150 months at most and not 320 months which is insane, or they should improve our chancellor ability to reduce threat, because even with him doing this nonstop you have to wait like 30 years to reduce threat from 100 to 0, doing pretty much nothing in the meantime...

Yeah threat needs to increase and decrease faster. Right now it does not prevent anyone from steamrolling their neighbours because defensive pacts come too late, and by the time they're formed there's no stopping that blob, it only slows down the player by forcing them to chase 20 armies around the world.
 

Olenksey

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I tried both ways. The thing is, defensive pacts don't really help containing AI blobs. And sometimes they aren't really logical.
I suppose that they should also be agressive, like in EU4, and be based on culture, not religion. That'll be more realistic and fun.
Currently I'm playing with them on cause when I started this playthrough, it seemed like a good idea. Now it is not. So I use the fact that the coalition is almost disbanded upon reloading.
 

Unready

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I usually have them on.

They can change only your middle-game then you are already big to bring their attention and fear but not so strong enough to fight whole world on long run.
So then I turn into scavenger - fight small quick targets, chow their revolts and so on.
Later when you grow into several continents you don't care about them anymore.
 

Jaevelklein

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I don't like the defensive pact.
- Threat Decay takes so long to slow down even with my chancellor being active. I find myself idling doing nothing with maximum speed just to get it down.
- Threat is increased based on your size. Take 1 country as an empire and bam +30% threat. Again sit idle.
- My vassals are still declaring war all over the place. The only thing I can do is revoking their titles cuz France (vassal) owning counties in Khazaria is just too disgusting.
- The practical implementation of the defensive pacts is bad. I never liked it how some random patriarch in Constantinople would jump in on the defensive pact when I was holy-warring Muslims in Africa as Hispania.
 

jwalche

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I tried both ways. The thing is, defensive pacts don't really help containing AI blobs. And sometimes they aren't really logical.
I suppose that they should also be agressive, like in EU4, and be based on culture, not religion. That'll be more realistic and fun.
Currently I'm playing with them on cause when I started this playthrough, it seemed like a good idea. Now it is not. So I use the fact that the coalition is almost disbanded upon reloading.
I have seen Khazaria blob ganged by a defensive pack and got contained early in game, from several games. Byzantium would get wiped out quite frequently without it, at least before HF when there were fewer duchies and counties.