Defense Stations seem to be a bit underwhelming?

[Encadi]

In my head a fully built space station should be a challenge for powerful fleets, its not something you could afford in every system but the important ones should be able to have huge stations with good defenses. On the stream they seemed really squishy and a waste.

 

[TheBeautifulVoid2]

They are a challenge. We've seen them be 4k military power, which is more powerful than the ~2k fleets that the Blorg-Just League war was fought with. They're not unkillable, however. Every defence can be destroyed, otherwise it would be a dull turtly game.

If you want a defence that would be horribly expensive but earthshakingly powerful, a Mackau Trap might be the right thing to build.

 

[BishopofNoobs]

They neither concentrated on a particular research for defense stations nor did they spend a lot of time on the design and still got about 4k military power which is definitely not weak, so I'm pretty satisfied

 

[Encadi]

Oh the one I noticed some episodes earlier were easily killed by a 2k fleet. Tehy seemed to have like 500-700 defense maybe I should continue watching more carefully.

 

[Ijiero]

The hug boxes were indeed around 750; but the fortresses they researched later were 4k. Not at all weak...

 

[macd21]

Also the Blorg were engaged in an offensive war, if the were on the defensive those stations would be working in conjunction with the fleet, probably making it very difficult for an enemy to crack a system.

 

[Kikaider]

They are a challenge. We've seen them be 4k military power, which is more powerful than the ~2k fleets that the Blorg-Just League war was fought with. They're not unkillable, however. Every defence can be destroyed, otherwise it would be a dull turtly game.

If you want a defence that would be horribly expensive but earthshakingly powerful, a Mackau Trap might be the right thing to build.

For fortresses I think you're right in that 4k is easily achievable (and that's only with tier 2-3 weapons and defense, imagine tier 5+) and individual weapons platforms can end up rivaling fleets. HOWEVER, I think the OP is referring to the Starbases around planets that just get a really basic 300 power tier-1 weapons module, no shields/armor and no way to further boost any combat attribute or upgrade weapons. And considering that most battles will revolve around habitable planets (like islands in the Pacific during WW2), it seems strange that there is no way to boost starbase defenses past day 1, especially given the limitation that all weapons platforms have to be a certain minimum distance away (and we can't see their weapons radius while building).

Yes, a dedicated fleet should be able to overcome orbital planetary defenses that have expanded upon over 100 years, but it should also take substantially more than 5 corvettes (I believe each of Wiz's corvettes hit 150+ power in the most recent streams, so 5 would double a planetary starbase's attack power).

 

[goliard20]

They build the hug boxes much too late. The fleets were already big enough to easily kill them, the fortresses now are indeed much stronger and are a real enemy for fleets.

 

[mackau]

Wiz's defenses were tier 2, and using old weaponry by the time the Federation lead war came about (I think they were done before the first yust league war). They were speedbumps at best in the second.

His relatively new fortress was 4k strength. If he used tier 2 platforms with similar weaponry they'd have been much more powerful than the OG hug box.

A system with a well put together set of defences would be capable (IMO) of defending against a large fleet, but defenses will need to be constantly upgraded to keep pace. I think they can be upgraded but we'll see on release.

The cost is likely far too high to put them in every world, although that (imo) depends on how the sector mechanics play with defenses. Can you stick a fortress in a sector system and have it maintained by them? Will sectors build defenses if you give them a military focus?

Wiz effectively had his entire empire with no fixed defense. Against a more 'switched on' AI (or human) he could have lost the entire khersonia system, not just the two spaceports (which themselves are a big blow).

A standing fleet will always be needed, you can't be defending weak planets or non populated mining systems with fortresses.

 

[hashinshin]

It's a delicate balance.

If defenses are too weak then nobody builds them and wars become short brutal affairs that never feel rewarding since one battle and then it's ove.r

If defense are too strong then nobody attacks and rather waits for their opponent to make the first mistake.

 

[REDDQ]

Indeed, Defense Stations seemed a bit underwhelming in Blorg stream. But with no game at hand it is hard to provide input on any quality basing on just one source played on constantly changing code. Soon we will get way more material though.

 

[Tallfellow]

Indeed, Defense Stations seemed a bit underwhelming in Blorg stream. But with no game at hand it is hard to provide input on any quality basing on just one source played on constantly changing code. Soon we will get way more material though.

Why do you think that they are underwhelming? A 4k defense station is pretty beefy to have to deal with for an invader. And remember that you can put multiple in a system, so a 10k fleet that has to conquer a system with 3-4 or even 5 of those will have a hard time at it. Even if they can't all hit the fleet at the same time.

And apart from that the defense stations seem really expensive to build, think a 4k defense station was between 2.5k and 3.5k minerals it seems fairly well balanced. But we'll see more next week! Which i'm looking forward to!

 

[darwinthepiercer]

Maybe I missed it in the Blorg streams, but can you build defensive platforms next to the warp/wormhole/hyperlane entry points in a system? Since all forms of FTL have a cooldown period upon entering the system, it might make tactical sense to build platforms around known entry points so you can blast at fleets which are essentially helpless. Of course, that might make it a bit over-powered if you can do that.

 

[REDDQ]

Why do you think that they are underwhelming? A 4k defense station is pretty beefy to have to deal with for an invader. And remember that you can put multiple in a system, so a 10k fleet that has to conquer a system with 3-4 or even 5 of those will have a hard time at it. Even if they can't all hit the fleet at the same time.

And apart from that the defense stations seem really expensive to build, think a 4k defense station was between 2.5k and 3.5k minerals it seems fairly well balanced. But we'll see more next week! Which i'm looking forward to!

Fortress didn't see much action. I have no idea how well it will fight against prepared enemy. I suppose it will have good defences because any fleet from nation of similar force will outperform its damage in both alpha and dps areas. Power alone doesn't tell me much. Meanwhile smaller stations (Hugboxes) didn't manage to stop any fleet for more than a few seconds and I wonder what place they will have in the late game.

But as I said, not enough data to know anything for sure and I am looking forward to see more.

 

[barny]

It's a delicate balance.

If defenses are too weak then nobody builds them and wars become short brutal affairs that never feel rewarding since one battle and then it's ove.r

If defense are too strong then nobody attacks and rather waits for their opponent to make the first mistake.

Pretty much this. I think those defenses need to serve two purposes:

a) prevent small fleets from bombarding planets for an invasion

b) stall larger fleets long enough for a defense fleet to arrive in time to save the system

They need decent weapons but mainly a lot of hit points to be alive long enough.

 

[Bob_Herzog]

In my head a fully built space station should be a challenge for powerful fleets, its not something you could afford in every system but the important ones should be able to have huge stations with good defenses. On the stream they seemed really squishy and a waste.

Funny for me it is the other way around. I think military stations in space would be the equivalent of small pocket defences. No complicated and expensive engines (or FTL) just a huge block that can hold it's orbit. Problem is of course any enemy worth their salt won't miss a nearly stationary object in space.

I see them more as a method to slow an intruder down until help arrives. When the fleet is there they can provide valuable fire-support (and thus long range weapons or fighters are definitley what they should use).

 

[Tim_Ward]

Reasons why we can't tell shit about the balance of defence stations from the stream:

1. The blorg have horribly outmatched everyone they've been against so far, swanning around with their two 7k+ fleets while their opponents can field single fleets of 5k on a good day. A single 4k+ Conversation fortress is a pretty big deal for those guys, but we don't know how much of a big deal it is against a hypothetical Blorg equivalent opponent.
2. Wiz is streaming and showing of mechanics, not playing as in an optimal fashion. He made the Hug Boxes as soon as he got the technology to build the first tier space statyions, then forgot about them for the rest of the game so by the time they actually fired shots in anger they were probably horribly out of date. In a real game, you'd pay a bit more attention to keep your defenses up to date, but this doesn't make for a good spectator sport.
3. We know there's a radius that stops you putting all your space stations together in a big ball of death, but we don't know if it's still possible for them to mutually support each other with long range weaponry - Wiz mentioned something to this effect when speaking about fighters.
4. We don't know how cost effective Space Stations are compared to ships - roughly how much power you get per mineral. Presumably, they deliver much more bang for their buck than space ships because they don't need FTL drives, but we don't know the specifics.
5. Optimal behaviour in a defensive situation would be to arrange a battle where the AI has to attack your fleet and your station at the same time. Inferior fleet + space station = superior fleet in some circumstances, but at the cost of mobility. Understanding of the enemies FTL method and likely route of attack informs deployment and design of stations, but we don't know the specifics /against equivalent opponents, not pissants/ because this is obviously not stream friendly behavior.

 

[TomBombadil]

Guessing you haven't watched the latest streams with 4k fortresses then. =P

 

[Hanebuch]

We don't know how cost effective Space Stations are compared to ships - roughly how much power you get per mineral. Presumably, they deliver much more bang for their buck than space ships because they don't need FTL drives, but we don't know the specifics

We know the numbers for the current blorg battleship and fortress design:
Battleship:
Strength 1090
Costs 1365 Minerals
Maintenance 6.82 Energy/Minerals
Fortress:
Strength 4k+
Costs 1077 Minerals
Maintenance 9.42 Energy/Minerals

 

[Heatth]

We know the numbers for the current blorg battleship and fortress design:
Battleship:
Strength 1090
Costs 1365 Minerals
Maintenance 6.82 Energy/Minerals
Fortress:
Strength 4k+
Costs 1077 Minerals
Maintenance 9.42 Energy/Minerals

So in this specific case a Battleship cost 1,3 minerals per strength upfront and have a maintenance of 0,006. Meanwhile, the fortress cost 0,7 upfront and 0,002 as maintenance.

Yeah, the fortress is definitively more cost effective.