Defense platforms need buffing for late game

[Scirocco16V]

In the later game, citadels with defense platforms never seem as formidable as their indicated strength would suggest.
I tend to build defense platforms in the later game mostly to scare off the AI with a larger indicated strength, not because the platforms would actually help much if the AI attacked.
I think it might be because defense platform hull points don't increase much throughout the game, so by later in the game a fleet can wipe out the defense platforms fairly quickly, before they inflict much damage.
Ion cannons are a bit better, with more hull and weapon range, but they are only really effective against large ships with little to no evasion. Also, they are only available with paid DLC.

3 ideas for helping the situation:
1) as starbases are upgraded, instead of or in addition to increasing the number of platforms, increase the platform hull points.
2) somehow integrate platforms into the starbases so they share hull points.
3) give defense platforms evasion similar to destroyers.

 

[RhysTheT00n]

That's the key point about bases and defence platforms, using the range building multiplies the effective force of your fleet massively and defence platforms are usually killed in attacks, so attacking fleets have to retreat allowing recapturing of the base and time to organise defence.
A decent base plus fortress habitat can block a front so you can concentrate offensive power better, to break through.

Mm, depends on whether you're talking about Singleplayer or Multiplayer. A Fortress habitat is only really useful in Singleplayer, since the AI will hold that Starbase until they take that planet (which they never will), however an actual player will just repair at the starbase and proceed. Defensive platforms still need a slight buff in terms of hull, that way they'd have a bit more survivability, but on top of that, it's really the starbase itself that needs buffing, and that's just customisation options really as well as Fortified Core Layers applying to starbases, though maybe that would be a little OP, especially if we could change the health focus of a star base. On top of that, I think the higher the level of star base, the more items in a build queue can be completed at once, that would make them a lot more valuable in terms of repairing damage dealt.

 

[Niidhogg]

I suggest: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/threads/change-defenses-stations-to-drones.1492268/

 

[Kiwibaum]

You missed my point entirely, Bastions can be made to be stronger than a single fleet, this is both at the beginning of the game (when no, you would have to invest nearly 4X the amount of alloys into fleets to become even 2X as powerful as a Bastion, and this is with the Supremacy tree doubling your fleet capacity so each fleet is kind of two fleets). This means that they act as an extra fleet that does not eat into your fleet cap. Also, no, the amount of chokepoints does divide the effectiveness. If you don't have a chokepoint, then the enemy is just going to go around the bastion, assuming it isn't defending a planet they want. If you didn't have a chokepoint then you would have to build several bastions at each entry point just from a single direction, which could cost 2X, 3X, maybe even 4X the amount of Alloys/time as a chokepoint.

To make Bastions a bit more powerful, like I said, I think we need a bit more control over the customisation of our starbase setup. I don't want my starbase to have 20 Plasma cannons against an FE which is spamming shields. Instead, I'd rather they shit out Kinetics (Citadels should be upgraded to large weapons, maybe a fewer amount? Or the same amount?) I think defensive platforms should be given a 1.5X hull boost, or maybe 2X just to round it up. This would increase their *rate of power growth* as well as making up for the lack of evasion.

Something to boost Bastions a little bit would be to increase the amount of items that can be built at once respective of the level of starbase. For example, a level one starbase or frontier outpost wouldn't be able to build anything (besides upgrade), the Starport would be able to build one upgrade at a time, the Starhold would be able to build two items at once, including defense stations. The Star Fortress would be able to build 4 items at once and the Citadel would be able to build 6 with Eternal Vigilance boosting that to either 8 or 10, because I like the number 10. This would hopefully remedy the problem of defensive platforms being harder to replenish after a battle, as well as making Bastions in general more formidable.

I never said anything about bastions not being able to be stronger than a single fleet. I just said it doesn't matter that much because of the reasons I stated. You easily can and should have mutliple fleets after the early game.

Yes they can count as an extra fleet in defense and this is how you use them. Remember that each fort reduces your fleet cap by 36 tho, since it's not an anchorage.

The dividing of effectiveness is one of my points that fleets tend to be better than static defenses in most cases. Glad we agree that it exists.

To make defenses worthwhile they have to be at least as strong as a same cost fleet multiplied by the amount of chokepoints AND enemy fleets can't jump over them, or your fleetpower and the enemies has to be very close and you use them as savezones for your fleet, basicly like medival castles and the like were used. This however is only worth in defensive wars as a means of stalling, so you have to have a way for making time be on your side aswell, which honestly feels rare in stellaris.

However since you don't want defense to be the stronger, you'd also need to add a way to overcome them, so basicly something like specialised anti defense ships or something the like.

If you want to stall a superior enemy you won't have a chance even with defense structures, even if they got buffed a little. The best way to stall hen would probably be a planet with massive amounts of defensive armies as stupid and as much of an investment as that is, since most people won't expect it and would have to bomb for quite a bit and build up armies. This also only works if there's a single chokepoint and no jump drives tho.

 

[RhysTheT00n]

I never said anything about bastions not being able to be stronger than a single fleet. I just said it doesn't matter that much because of the reasons I stated. You easily can and should have mutliple fleets after the early game.

Yes they can count as an extra fleet in defense and this is how you use them. Remember that each fort reduces your fleet cap by 36 tho, since it's not an anchorage.

The dividing of effectiveness is one of my points that fleets tend to be better than static defenses in most cases. Glad we agree that it exists.

To make defenses worthwhile they have to be at least as strong as a same cost fleet multiplied by the amount of chokepoints AND enemy fleets can't jump over them, or your fleetpower and the enemies has to be very close and you use them as savezones for your fleet, basicly like medival castles and the like were used. This however is only worth in defensive wars as a means of stalling, so you have to have a way for making time be on your side aswell, which honestly feels rare in stellaris.

However since you don't want defense to be the stronger, you'd also need to add a way to overcome them, so basicly something like specialised anti defense ships or something the like.

If you want to stall a superior enemy you won't have a chance even with defense structures, even if they got buffed a little. The best way to stall hen would probably be a planet with massive amounts of defensive armies as stupid and as much of an investment as that is, since most people won't expect it and would have to bomb for quite a bit and build up armies. This also only works if there's a single chokepoint and no jump drives tho.

Right, first off, we need to establish whether we are talking about Singleplayer and at what point end game starts. If we are talking at 2400 on normal settings, then yeah, you're likely going to have multiple fleets (the only way multiple fleets are going to be stronger than a Citadel is if you've got Battleships with top tier weapons. I've had a Star Fortress worth 30-40K and my cruisers only hit about 10K). Once you get X weapons and the like then that's when Citadels become either only as powerful or weaker than your fleet, especially when you've got a lot of fleet cap (we also need to make sure we're separating fleet cap from naval cap). Also, my mistake, I meant to say "Choke points DO NOT divide effectiveness". The lack of chokepoints divides effectiveness. On Singleplayer, the AI does not use Jump Drives, so that is a non-issue, it is far more economically friendly to block them off with a bastion early game that costs about 1K alloys to fully complete and can take the enemy's full force with little to no issue than it is to spend 3K alloys on a weaker fleet of corvettes where each battle wears down the fleet and costs me alloys. On Grand Admiral, my tactic is always to let the AI waste all their ships attacking my bastion with my fleet out of the system to bait them in and let the bastion kill them all, then send my fleets in to take out all their stations as quickly as possible.

Why would they have to be multiplied by the amount of chokepoints? How would that even work? While Jump Drives only apply to players it could be cool to have a building on a star base (or upgrade the FTL inhibitor) to do what the L-cluster does and tangle the subspace network or something so it can't be passed or reached via a Jump Drive.

It really depends on how superior the enemy is, I can and have stalled Grand Admiral AI for most of the game using bastions. They get all the ships and tech faster than I do so I can't outclass them in ships until I've got all my planets cranking out as much research as possible which usually is only operating at full capacity at about 2260-70. If you have any tips for a Determined Exterminator feel free to share them.

This is why it's important for us to be clear on whether we're talking about Singleplayer or Multiplayer. The Fortress world strat wouldn't work on a player, they would either use a Jump Drive or just take the bastion and move on. Unless they were a roughly evenly matched player and taking the bastion damaged their fleet significantly and they couldn't proceed without repairing, in which case they would need to take the planet, but that's if they don't have a Jump Drive.

 

[Kiwibaum]

Right, first off, we need to establish whether we are talking about Singleplayer and at what point end game starts. If we are talking at 2400 on normal settings, then yeah, you're likely going to have multiple fleets (the only way multiple fleets are going to be stronger than a Citadel is if you've got Battleships with top tier weapons. I've had a Star Fortress worth 30-40K and my cruisers only hit about 10K). Once you get X weapons and the like then that's when Citadels become either only as powerful or weaker than your fleet, especially when you've got a lot of fleet cap (we also need to make sure we're separating fleet cap from naval cap). Also, my mistake, I meant to say "Choke points DO NOT divide effectiveness". The lack of chokepoints divides effectiveness. On Singleplayer, the AI does not use Jump Drives, so that is a non-issue, it is far more economically friendly to block them off with a bastion early game that costs about 1K alloys to fully complete and can take the enemy's full force with little to no issue than it is to spend 3K alloys on a weaker fleet of corvettes where each battle wears down the fleet and costs me alloys. On Grand Admiral, my tactic is always to let the AI waste all their ships attacking my bastion with my fleet out of the system to bait them in and let the bastion kill them all, then send my fleets in to take out all their stations as quickly as possible.

Why would they have to be multiplied by the amount of chokepoints? How would that even work? While Jump Drives only apply to players it could be cool to have a building on a star base (or upgrade the FTL inhibitor) to do what the L-cluster does and tangle the subspace network or something so it can't be passed or reached via a Jump Drive.

It really depends on how superior the enemy is, I can and have stalled Grand Admiral AI for most of the game using bastions. They get all the ships and tech faster than I do so I can't outclass them in ships until I've got all my planets cranking out as much research as possible which usually is only operating at full capacity at about 2260-70. If you have any tips for a Determined Exterminator feel free to share them.

This is why it's important for us to be clear on whether we're talking about Singleplayer or Multiplayer. The Fortress world strat wouldn't work on a player, they would either use a Jump Drive or just take the bastion and move on. Unless they were a roughly evenly matched player and taking the bastion damaged their fleet significantly and they couldn't proceed without repairing, in which case they would need to take the planet, but that's if they don't have a Jump Drive.

Ok fair the bastions are better against ai, cause ai is suicidal. You also don't usually need those tho, since the ai splits its fleets and you can pick em off one by one usually.

The chokepoint thing is against players or non braindead ai: If there's 2 chokepoints, you have to build up both for the same price or the enemy will attack the weaker one, thus your defenses are half as effective. If there is three your defenses are only a third as effective, etc.

I was mainly talking about players here, since I usually don't have as much problems with ai, that I felt the need to build defenses.

 

[RhysTheT00n]

Ok fair the bastions are better against ai, cause ai is suicidal. You also don't usually need those tho, since the ai splits its fleets and you can pick em off one by one usually.

The chokepoint thing is against players or non braindead ai: If there's 2 chokepoints, you have to build up both for the same price or the enemy will attack the weaker one, thus your defenses are half as effective. If there is three your defenses are only a third as effective, etc.

I was mainly talking about players here, since I usually don't have as much problems with ai, that I felt the need to build defenses.

Okedoke, so...
Do you play Singleplayer at all? On higher difficulties or just normal? Do you play as a murder empire like Determined Exterminator? I ask these because when everyone wants to kill you on GA, defenses are very useful. When I'm expanding at the beginning of the game, I like to try and scout out 10 total planets as close as possible to the center of my empire. I make an effort to lock down a single choke point in each direction for the specific reason that I don't want to have to build loads of bastions. That's just trying to overcome a natural limitation, which falls under strategy. Once I have my 10 planets, I play almost exclusively defensively and tall for most of the game until I've got ringworlds galore and the only way I can get more of a megastructure is by taking someone elses (when this happens I like to pause the game, declare war, then use my enemy's gateway on the same day to tp to their megastructure system. Mass Effect style. Would it surprise you to know that my empire is called the Reapers?). If I'm fighting a superior foe (which on GA, is most empires for most of the game).

I will build a bastion with strike craft and if I can, a fleet. If they are stronger than me, I won't be playing offensively for most of the war. If they have planets I want I will hold my fleet at the bastion and let them waste their fleets. I realise I've already made this point so let me move on to my inexperience with Multiplayer. If I'm fighting a superior foe, I'm not going to be offensive at all. My bastion will be stronger than my fleet, not to mention significantly cheaper. I will try to bottleneck them into a chokepoint and hope that I have enough alloy production to shit out corvettes in addition to my bastion. One way or the other, I'm having a bastion. It is stronger than a single fleet, in a defensive war, the fleets are secondary. This is where FTL inhibitors come in handy, because in a big system, players (and AI, I've lost games to this) can simply fly past the bastion and into the next system. If you have an FTL Inhibitor, you can use the range advantage and hope you've tech rushed early enough.

Can I just ask, are we in agreement that bastions need a buff? I just need to make sure we both know what we're arguing for

 

[Kiwibaum]

Okedoke, so...
Do you play Singleplayer at all? On higher difficulties or just normal? Do you play as a murder empire like Determined Exterminator? I ask these because when everyone wants to kill you on GA, defenses are very useful. When I'm expanding at the beginning of the game, I like to try and scout out 10 total planets as close as possible to the center of my empire. I make an effort to lock down a single choke point in each direction for the specific reason that I don't want to have to build loads of bastions. That's just trying to overcome a natural limitation, which falls under strategy. Once I have my 10 planets, I play almost exclusively defensively and tall for most of the game until I've got ringworlds galore and the only way I can get more of a megastructure is by taking someone elses (when this happens I like to pause the game, declare war, then use my enemy's gateway on the same day to tp to their megastructure system. Mass Effect style. Would it surprise you to know that my empire is called the Reapers?). If I'm fighting a superior foe (which on GA, is most empires for most of the game).

I will build a bastion with strike craft and if I can, a fleet. If they are stronger than me, I won't be playing offensively for most of the war. If they have planets I want I will hold my fleet at the bastion and let them waste their fleets. I realise I've already made this point so let me move on to my inexperience with Multiplayer. If I'm fighting a superior foe, I'm not going to be offensive at all. My bastion will be stronger than my fleet, not to mention significantly cheaper. I will try to bottleneck them into a chokepoint and hope that I have enough alloy production to shit out corvettes in addition to my bastion. One way or the other, I'm having a bastion. It is stronger than a single fleet, in a defensive war, the fleets are secondary. This is where FTL inhibitors come in handy, because in a big system, players (and AI, I've lost games to this) can simply fly past the bastion and into the next system. If you have an FTL Inhibitor, you can use the range advantage and hope you've tech rushed early enough.

Can I just ask, are we in agreement that bastions need a buff? I just need to make sure we both know what we're arguing for

I mostly play single player and on ga. I play a wide mix of empires. I use random spawns, 1 ensured planet and allow advanced starts. I've been playing on scaling difficulty for a while now but I probably should switch back to normal at some point, since it's a lot easier.
Last match I was playing a necrophage terravore, with kinda a shitty start. There was a machine empire next to me with 5-6 planets next to me when I found it and it had overwhealming everything but technology. It's fleet was about 3 times mine, but it lost the war decisefly, cause I just waited till he split his fleets and picked them off one by one. I don't think I'd have gotten enough fleet power with a single defensive base + fleet.
Choosing chokepoints is nice early on but later on is something you often don't have the comfort of doing.

If the enemy player has no other way around your bastion, then he will only take the systems till the chokepoint. He can keep the investment on his fleet to be used somewhere else later. And he'd probably be tech rushing aswell since tech is op atm.

And yes I do indeed thing that defense, especially later on need a huge buff. I also think there should be a way to specialise ships to hardcounter defenses tho. This would give defenses more of a role and expand the rock, paper, sissors a bit.

 

[RhysTheT00n]

I mostly play single player and on ga. I play a wide mix of empires. I use random spawns, 1 ensured planet and allow advanced starts. I've been playing on scaling difficulty for a while now but I probably should switch back to normal at some point, since it's a lot easier.
Last match I was playing a necrophage terravore, with kinda a shitty start. There was a machine empire next to me with 5-6 planets next to me when I found it and it had overwhealming everything but technology. It's fleet was about 3 times mine, but it lost the war decisefly, cause I just waited till he split his fleets and picked them off one by one. I don't think I'd have gotten enough fleet power with a single defensive base + fleet.
Choosing chokepoints is nice early on but later on is something you often don't have the comfort of doing.

If the enemy player has no other way around your bastion, then he will only take the systems till the chokepoint. He can keep the investment on his fleet to be used somewhere else later. And he'd probably be tech rushing aswell since tech is op atm.

And yes I do indeed thing that defense, especially later on need a huge buff. I also think there should be a way to specialise ships to hardcounter defenses tho. This would give defenses more of a role and expand the rock, paper, sissors a bit.

Interestingly enough, I'd say late game is when they need buffing the least, since once you have a few Research Ringworlds they get upgraded faster than ships. Not only do they get an exclusive upgrade that ships don't get (Hull), they get their own 10% damage boost tech, on top of that, the weapons, armour and shield techs all upgrade defense platforms as well.

Even with all that though, they do need a buff for empires with 10+ fleets. I'd like to have it be a huge, drawn out battle rather than a few second barrage of Kinetic Artillery, or on the occasion I do annihilate the station, it's because of my own power, not because the stations are weak.

 

[NXAwesome1]

In the later game, citadels with defense platforms never seem as formidable as their indicated strength would suggest.
I tend to build defense platforms in the later game mostly to scare off the AI with a larger indicated strength, not because the platforms would actually help much if the AI attacked.
I think it might be because defense platform hull points don't increase much throughout the game, so by later in the game a fleet can wipe out the defense platforms fairly quickly, before they inflict much damage.
Ion cannons are a bit better, with more hull and weapon range, but they are only really effective against large ships with little to no evasion. Also, they are only available with paid DLC.

3 ideas for helping the situation:
1) as starbases are upgraded, instead of or in addition to increasing the number of platforms, increase the platform hull points.
2) somehow integrate platforms into the starbases so they share hull points.
3) give defense platforms evasion similar to destroyers.

I like this idea though I would modify so that defense platforms are separate, though they do get a little evasion due to being able to move around the station, as the game goes on when you reach year "?" (which would be some time in the late game) an upwards scaling of starbase damage, hull points, and weapons range happens. Though I'm not sure if it would end at some year or just keep scaling upwards theoretically infinitely but Very Slowly.

 

[NXAwesome1]

Though I have found that sometimes (not always) that starbases are still viable in the late game. I have found that if a starbase is extremely well armed with all the late game techs and a Ion Cannon it can fight a Fallen Empire fleet with the help of a small fleet. And when I'm talking about late game techs for starbases I'm talking about a whole lot of neutron launchers and kinetic artillery with a small touch of hanger bays.

 

[peter_m]

I think the geography of the system should provide more bonuses or penalties, and the starbase could have modules that are specialized to take advantage of those modifiers. For example, an asteroid belt or presence of a binary or trinary star should offer some modifiers. Currently, it's just black holes and pulsars that have any kind of combat modifiers. In the real world, defenses are amplified or weakened by taking advantage of the local geography. This could operate the same way.