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Scirocco16V

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In the later game, citadels with defense platforms never seem as formidable as their indicated strength would suggest.
I tend to build defense platforms in the later game mostly to scare off the AI with a larger indicated strength, not because the platforms would actually help much if the AI attacked.
I think it might be because defense platform hull points don't increase much throughout the game, so by later in the game a fleet can wipe out the defense platforms fairly quickly, before they inflict much damage.
Ion cannons are a bit better, with more hull and weapon range, but they are only really effective against large ships with little to no evasion. Also, they are only available with paid DLC.

3 ideas for helping the situation:
1) as starbases are upgraded, instead of or in addition to increasing the number of platforms, increase the platform hull points.
2) somehow integrate platforms into the starbases so they share hull points.
3) give defense platforms evasion similar to destroyers.
 
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balmung60

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They were removed when defense platforms were tied to starbases. Before that, you built them wherever you pleased using constructors and there were also defense stations (twice the size of defense platforms) and fortresses (4x the size of defense platforms).
 
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Not quite the buff you had in mind, but I'd love to have some way for defense platforms to disengage when sufficiently damaged rather than being destroyed. Even when you win defensively against a big fleet, it's often a pyrrhic victory since you'll have a lot of platforms to completely replace while the enemy's fleet just disengaged, heals up, and will be back sooner than you can churn out new platforms.
 
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Alblaka

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They were removed when defense platforms were tied to starbases. Before that, you built them wherever you pleased using constructors and there were also defense stations (twice the size of defense platforms) and fortresses (4x the size of defense platforms).

Oh yes, I remember, back when all three FTL types were still in, and you were able to build defenses anywhere... just that they didn't matter because the enemy could as well attack any one system they wanted to anyways... good (tm) times.
 

C4st1gator

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Don't Defence Platforms gain 10% strength from their repeatable technology in addition to being the only recipient of a repeatable tech, which increases hull? In theory Defence Platforms become more powerful than ships, given enough repeatables, which increase their damage, armor, shields, and hull

We have:
  • Synchronized Firing Patterns (Defence Platform Damage +10%)
  • Fortified Core Layers (Defence Platform Hull Points +10%)
This is added to the repeatable technologies, which all ships or stations receive:
  • Focusing Arrays (Energy Weapon Damage +5%)
  • Flash Coolant (Energy Weapon Attack Speed +5%)
  • Synapse Interceptors (Strike Craft Damage +10%)
  • Heat Recyclers (Strike Craft Attack Speed +10%)
  • High Density Munitions (Kinetic Weapon Damage +5%)
  • Loader Efficiency (Kinetic Weapon Attack Speed +5%)
  • Thermodynamic Yield Control (Explosive Weapon Damage +5%)
  • Miniaturized Pre-Igniters (Explosive Weapon Attack Speed +5%)
  • Matter Compression (Armour Hit Points +5%)
  • Shield Harmonics (Shield Hit Points +5%)
In total, this should mean, that a Defence Platform grows stronger compared to ships and should eventually become durable enough to be a threat to ships.

This, of course, assumes, that the Platforms have been given weapons, that aren't hopelessly outranged by attacking starfleets. To combat this, I've constructed a mix of weapon platforms for long range and very long range engagements as well as short range defenders against strike craft and swarm corvettes. Also, any bastion receives a Target Uplink Computer. The 50% bonus range greatly help to not get outranged by ship weapons. Effectively the range on the Defence Platforms has to exceed 150 units to be able to target Carrier Computer Battleships.

The question is, when do we reach equilibrium with fleets? Interestingly, this may be easier, considering the weapon of choice in post-lategame is the Focused Arc Emitter, since armour and shields grow, but Hull Points remain static, except on Defence Platforms. This is where the platforms may be able to shine.

Edit: Quick Thought on the matter. The ability to equip Defence Platforms with one (X) Slot weapon would allow the defender to field Focused Arc Emitters against fleets. Cloud Lightning fulfills the same purpose, but suffers greatly from its insufficient base range of 60.
 
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Scirocco16V

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Oh yes, I remember, back when all three FTL types were still in, and you were able to build defenses anywhere... just that they didn't matter because the enemy could as well attack any one system they wanted to anyways... good (tm) times.

Ah. Now I remember researching fortresses. I don't think I ever actually built any, though.. Like you said, they were pointless back then.

I do miss the variety in play from the 3 FTL types. It really changed the game up. I agree the game is better overall with only the 1 FTL now, but something was lost in exchange for the overall gain.

Yes, allowing platforms to be upgraded to fortresses again would do very nicely.
 

Scirocco16V

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Don't Defense Platforms gain 10% strength from their repeatable technology in addition to being the only recipient of a repeatable tech, which increases hull? In theory Defense Platforms become more powerful than ships, given enough repeatables, which increase their damage, armor, shields, and hull

Absolutely valid. Just doesn't seem to hold up in practice for whatever reason. Maybe because it requires 11 repeats for a platform to have the hull points of a cruiser and it still wouldn't have the cruiser's evasion. Maybe increasing the hull boost from the repeatable from 10% to 20%?

This is added to the repeatable technologies, which all ships or stations receive:

Everything receives them, attackers and defenders both, so the net effect is 0 against an even tech opponent.

In total, this should mean, that a Defense Platform grows stronger compared to ships and should eventually become durable enough to be a threat to ships.

This, of course, assumes, that the Platforms have been given weapons, that aren't hopelessly outranged by attacking starfleets. To combat this, I've constructed a mix of weapon platforms for long range and very long range engagements as well as short range defenders against strike craft and swarm corvettes. Also, any bastion receives a Target Uplink Computer. The 50% bonus range greatly help to not get outranged by ship weapons. Effectively the range on the Defence Platforms has to exceed 150 units to be able to target Carrier Computer Battleships.

Does Target Uplink affect defense platforms? It says it increases "Starbase Weapons Range," but the defense platforms are technically separate from the starbase. I always assumed it didn't effect the platforms as a result. Am I wrong?

I tend to equip my platforms with lots of hangers since they can be effective as PD, against corvettes, and against battleships. I never understood the range at which strike craft launch, though. Do they automatically launch at start of combat or only when the enemy is at a certain range? Would target uplink affect their launch range? Strike craft have been very effective for my battleships lately. Is there a reason they'd be less effective on platforms?

The question is, when do we reach equilibrium with fleets? Interestingly, this may be easier, considering the weapon of choice in post-lategame is the Focused Arc Emitter, since armour and shields grow, but Hull Points remain static, except on Defence Platforms. This is where the platforms may be able to shine.

Edit: Quick Thought on the matter. The ability to equip Defence Platforms with one (X) Slot weapon would allow the defender to field Focused Arc Emitters against fleets. Cloud Lightning fulfills the same purpose, but suffers greatly from its insufficient base range of 60.

I like the idea of X slot platforms, but that doesn't address the problem of them all being destroyed quickly. Also, would they be sufficiently different from ion cannons? (Other than allowing a choice of 3 different weapon types?) For that matter, it would be nice if there was more than 1 weapon choice for T slots.
 

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Absolutely valid. Just doesn't seem to hold up in practice for whatever reason. Maybe because it requires 11 repeats for a platform to have the hull points of a cruiser and it still wouldn't have the cruiser's evasion. Maybe increasing the hull boost from the repeatable from 10% to 20%?
I guess the main problem here is boosting engineering repeatables. If I go back to the list of repeatable technologies, there are three from the physics tree and a whopping nine from engineering. This makes it a lot harder to rush any particular repeatable military engineering technology.
If you keep the civilian technology on par, this adds one additional physics and one engineering repeatable (+5% mineral and energy output respectively).

Unfortunately, we can no longer build pure engineering labs to keep up with demand, though the increasing cost per repeatable tech level helps ever so slightly. That is, until you experience integer overflow of repeatable cost, which I experienced once and it resulted in extreme advancements, because having a tech with a cost of (-2,147,483,648) tech points instantly completes the next day.

As you said, platforms don't have evasion, which translates into higher effective HP for those ships, that have evasion. This would mean more repeatables required to deal with evasive ships.

Does Target Uplink affect defense platforms? It says it increases "Starbase Weapons Range," but the defense platforms are technically separate from the starbase. I always assumed it didn't effect the platforms as a result. Am I wrong?
Great question: By all means it should, given how important your stations are to keep territory and fight wars. Though Seeing as Citadels aren't affected by Fortified Core Layers or Synchronized Firing Patterns, the 50% range bonus may only apply to the Citadel itself. This is a problem, since the entire defence seems to be over as soon as the Citadel's HP (Hull Points) drop to 0.

It needs every bit of range it can get, however. The weapons on a standard Citadel are auto-assigned hot garbage medium slots with limited range. The longest being Marauder Missiles at 100 units followed by Medium Gauss Cannon at 75 range. Citadels have no Point Defence either, so I feel vindicated for placing one or two Point Defence Platforms into the mix. As for my testing, apparently the break even point for HP lies beyond 25 repeatable technologies, while damage requires over 30. After that point a platform is theoretically stronger than a Battleship. I need to test, if it works out in practice.

Range is important, because endgame fleets may well be able to take down a Citadel with only their alpha strike. Since it doesn't grow in HP, Arc Emitters are once again deadly in post-lategame, provided they target the citatel and ignore the beefy Defence Platforms. Ships with Carrier Computers may also be able to stay out of a Citatadel's range without Target Uplink Computer. I'm afraid, that a combination of Juggernaut with Target Acquisition Array, an Admiral with Cautious and X-Slots will outrange this anyway, but fortunately, no Combat Computer stays at the maximum possible range.

However: Ion Cannons are badass. Their alpha strike can counter Battleships and their 10,000 base HP synergise greatly.

I tend to equip my platforms with lots of hangers since they can be effective as PD, against corvettes, and against battleships. I never understood the range at which strike craft launch, though. Do they automatically launch at start of combat or only when the enemy is at a certain range? Would target uplink affect their launch range? Strike craft have been very effective for my battleships lately. Is there a reason they'd be less effective on platforms?
The reason I can imagine, is that once a carrier entity is killed, all its child objects (the actual strike craft) are deleted. Strike craft also spawn continuously. This means the longer a carrier is active, the more strike craft are spawned and the more damage over time they inflict, provided they aren't shot down by Point Defence.
Still, Strike Craft are badass, as they seem to go through the entire system, once the enemy has been engaged.

As for stations, I think their main issue is, that they aren't affected by Fortified Core Layers.
 
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RhysTheT00n

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I guess the main problem here is boosting engineering repeatables. If I go back to the list of repeatable technologies, there are three from the physics tree and a whopping nine from engineering. This makes it a lot harder to rush any particular repeatable military engineering technology.
If you keep the civilian technology on par, this adds one additional physics and one engineering repeatable (+5% mineral and energy output respectively).

Unfortunately, we can no longer build pure engineering labs to keep up with demand, though the increasing cost per repeatable tech level helps ever so slightly. That is, until you experience integer overflow of repeatable cost, which I experienced once and it resulted in extreme advancements, because having a tech with a cost of (-2,147,483,648) tech points instantly completes the next day.

As you said, platforms don't have evasion, which translates into higher effective HP for those ships, that have evasion. This would mean more repeatables required to deal with evasive ships.


Great question: By all means it should, given how important your stations are to keep territory and fight wars. Though Seeing as Citadels aren't affected by Fortified Core Layers or Synchronized Firing Patterns, the 50% range bonus may only apply to the Citadel itself. This is a problem, since the entire defence seems to be over as soon as the Citadel's HP (Hull Points) drop to 0.

It needs every bit of range it can get, however. The weapons on a standard Citadel are auto-assigned hot garbage medium slots with limited range. The longest being Marauder Missiles at 100 units followed by Medium Gauss Cannon at 75 range. Citadels have no Point Defence either, so I feel vindicated for placing one or two Point Defence Platforms into the mix. As for my testing, apparently the break even point for HP lies beyond 25 repeatable technologies, while damage requires over 30. After that point a platform is theoretically stronger than a Battleship. I need to test, if it works out in practice.

Range is important, because endgame fleets may well be able to take down a Citadel with only their alpha strike. Since it doesn't grow in HP, Arc Emitters are once again deadly in post-lategame, provided they target the citatel and ignore the beefy Defence Platforms. Ships with Carrier Computers may also be able to stay out of a Citatadel's range without Target Uplink Computer. I'm afraid, that a combination of Juggernaut with Target Acquisition Array, an Admiral with Cautious and X-Slots will outrange this anyway, but fortunately, no Combat Computer stays at the maximum possible range.

However: Ion Cannons are badass. Their alpha strike can counter Battleships and their 10,000 base HP synergise greatly.


The reason I can imagine, is that once a carrier entity is killed, all its child objects (the actual strike craft) are deleted. Strike craft also spawn continuously. This means the longer a carrier is active, the more strike craft are spawned and the more damage over time they inflict, provided they aren't shot down by Point Defence.
Still, Strike Craft are badass, as they seem to go through the entire system, once the enemy has been engaged.

As for stations, I think their main issue is, that they aren't affected by Fortified Core Layers.
Being boosted by Fortified Core Layers is a shout, especially since again, ships can't get that boost, not only that, but the boosts from FCL is twice that of every other boost a ship gets. Assuming a Juggernaut and Target Uplink Computer boost Defense Platforms (I would hope so but I'm not sure. They should anyway), a Citadel would definitely be deserving of its name.
 

RhysTheT00n

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Being boosted by Fortified Core Layers is a shout, especially since again, ships can't get that boost, not only that, but the boosts from FCL is twice that of every other boost a ship gets. Assuming a Juggernaut and Target Uplink Computer boost Defense Platforms (I would hope so but I'm not sure. They should anyway), a Citadel would definitely be deserving of its name.
However, would Juggernauts be affected by FCL as they are like mobile star bases? If not then do you think they should be?
Also, if Starbases were boosted by FCL, that would mean a +10,000 Hull points per upgrade, damn. I would like that, but would that be wise from a game design perspective?

I would like more customisation control over starbases personally, the ability to change the guns that are equipped and the health type modules on the star base itself. It really annoys me when I'm fighting an enemy that either ignores armour or is very weak to shields and my starbases are locked with 60,000 armour. This also greatly reduces the amount they are improved with upgrades because they are only really being boosted by one upgrade type
 

Kiwibaum

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Defense stations falling of has a lot to do with that you can't stack them. Fleets you can stack as many as you want into one system and just overwhelm defenses. I think defenses could be much much stronger but there should be some form of siege ships/weapons that hardcounter them. This is the only way I can see defense stations as usefull in other cases than having a single chokepoint. Since if we have 2 chokepoints defense stations already are only half as good. You would have to build up both evenly and the enemy has to break through just one.
 

RhysTheT00n

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Defense stations falling of has a lot to do with that you can't stack them. Fleets you can stack as many as you want into one system and just overwhelm defenses. I think defenses could be much much stronger but there should be some form of siege ships/weapons that hardcounter them. This is the only way I can see defense stations as usefull in other cases than having a single chokepoint. Since if we have 2 chokepoints defense stations already are only half as good. You would have to build up both evenly and the enemy has to break through just one.
Depends on which stage of the game you're talking about. Once I start building Research Ringworlds all my labs become Nano Plants and then I never run out of alloys, so every planet/choke point is defended with a 400K bastion. I don't think you should be able to stack them, I just think they should be affected by Auras, as well as starbases having more customisation in general. Then your defense platforms are just as useful as an actual fleet. The thing is, once you crank out all that Research, bastions can quickly become more powerful than a single fleet, which then it can count as an extra fleet that doesn't have to worry about response time.
 
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Kiwibaum

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Depends on which stage of the game you're talking about. Once I start building Research Ringworlds all my labs become Nano Plants and then I never run out of alloys, so every planet/choke point is defended with a 400K bastion. I don't think you should be able to stack them, I just think they should be affected by Auras, as well as starbases having more customisation in general. Then your defense platforms are just as useful as an actual fleet. The thing is, once you crank out all that Research, bastions can quickly become more powerful than a single fleet, which then it can count as an extra fleet that doesn't have to worry about response time.
Well if anyone would've invested as much into fleets as you would have into defense than he would stomp through that defenses one by one. I don't think you should be able to stack em either, but the problem stays. The amount of chokepoints you have divides the effectivenes of the defense. And thus they have to be extremely strong to hold up, after some point.
 

RhysTheT00n

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Well if anyone would've invested as much into fleets as you would have into defense than he would stomp through that defenses one by one. I don't think you should be able to stack em either, but the problem stays. The amount of chokepoints you have divides the effectivenes of the defense. And thus they have to be extremely strong to hold up, after some point.
You missed my point entirely, Bastions can be made to be stronger than a single fleet, this is both at the beginning of the game (when no, you would have to invest nearly 4X the amount of alloys into fleets to become even 2X as powerful as a Bastion, and this is with the Supremacy tree doubling your fleet capacity so each fleet is kind of two fleets). This means that they act as an extra fleet that does not eat into your fleet cap. Also, no, the amount of chokepoints does divide the effectiveness. If you don't have a chokepoint, then the enemy is just going to go around the bastion, assuming it isn't defending a planet they want. If you didn't have a chokepoint then you would have to build several bastions at each entry point just from a single direction, which could cost 2X, 3X, maybe even 4X the amount of Alloys/time as a chokepoint.

To make Bastions a bit more powerful, like I said, I think we need a bit more control over the customisation of our starbase setup. I don't want my starbase to have 20 Plasma cannons against an FE which is spamming shields. Instead, I'd rather they shit out Kinetics (Citadels should be upgraded to large weapons, maybe a fewer amount? Or the same amount?) I think defensive platforms should be given a 1.5X hull boost, or maybe 2X just to round it up. This would increase their *rate of power growth* as well as making up for the lack of evasion.

Something to boost Bastions a little bit would be to increase the amount of items that can be built at once respective of the level of starbase. For example, a level one starbase or frontier outpost wouldn't be able to build anything (besides upgrade), the Starport would be able to build one upgrade at a time, the Starhold would be able to build two items at once, including defense stations. The Star Fortress would be able to build 4 items at once and the Citadel would be able to build 6 with Eternal Vigilance boosting that to either 8 or 10, because I like the number 10. This would hopefully remedy the problem of defensive platforms being harder to replenish after a battle, as well as making Bastions in general more formidable.
 

Rostyk.96

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Means of offense should outdo means of defense, because gameplay must remain dynamic. They shouldn't outprogress ships, or late game will become stale, so removing hull repeatable and buffing it in other ways for whole game:

Replace or complement their computer's bonuses to range and fighters engagement, 25%, 50% and 100% for basic, advanced and sapient/precognitive computers respectively (and do similar for starbases), this would mean a lot since you can stack range on ships to 60% (cautious admiral, rapid deployment, synth leader, sapient comuters) and they would wipe out platforms before coming into their range, defences should outrange ships and have first shots, also increase their health, 1000hp is barely bigger than destroyer, something like 1500 or 2000 will do.
 

RobInconformista

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This means that they act as an extra fleet that does not eat into your fleet cap.
That's the key point about bases and defence platforms, using the range building multiplies the effective force of your fleet massively and defence platforms are usually killed in attacks, so attacking fleets have to retreat allowing recapturing of the base and time to organise defence.
A decent base plus fortress habitat can block a front so you can concentrate offensive power better, to break through.