Defense: Panzyr + instruction conflict + Ironman = dismay

[Rexfelum]

I beat the campaign awhile ago, but I wanted to try again with all the updates since then, and I figured I might as well try Ironman. The result was jarring enough that I don't know if I should call this a "bug report."

In Defense: Panzyr, Lady Arano tells you not to let the six APC vehicles into the command center, followed immediately by a secondary character telling you "we can even get the turrets running if you let zero enemies through!" Sounds like the player has a little leeway on the number of live-versus-dead APC units.

In this play, an APC I had already shot (darn thing barely survived) moved faster than I was expecting and got into the command center. (The very round after it drove into sight, mind you.) Lady Arano told me "they're getting too close, stop them!" Sounds like the player has a moment to shoot the APC after it's arrived.

Click "continue," get "game over."

Uh?

Can anything be done about this? It's a lot harsher than the in-game text implied it was going to be.

(Follow-up: for some reason, my "Ironman" save seems not to be lost permanently. I left the game, poked around in the files (but changed nothing), and loaded the game again to find I could restart the mission. I presume this one is a bug.)

 

[Prussian Havoc]

It sounds like you, Good @Rexfelum, have been bit by two bugs that combined to cancel each other out and leave you with having “rehearsed-under-extremely-realistic-conditions” your next Mission. : )

The APC blitzkrieg is meant to be harsh and no, there is nothing in the text that should have led you to believe they APCs could arrive and leave you with the next turn to destroy them. If they arrive, you fail and the entire Restoration Cause falls with you.

Harsh?

Yes. And in a war-game there should be some of that.

But you might have a point about the text maybe stressing this particular Fail State just a bit more strenuously. :bow:

I do recommend that you report the ability to reload the Ironman as a Bug, for it most assuredly is.

 

[Derek Pullem]

By parking mechs in the entrances you should be able to prevent any "sneak" moves. Be careful though as you have to be in exactly the right spot.

The hardest part is saving the wounded with your "bounce and boom" mech. Often need some luck with that.

 

[Codezombie]

By parking mechs in the entrances you should be able to prevent any "sneak" moves. Be careful though as you have to be in exactly the right spot.

The hardest part is saving the wounded with your "bounce and boom" mech. Often need some luck with that.

Aye, but when that APC comes skidding round the corner only to come face to face with my *very* angry Grasshopper, it. is. so worth it...

 

[Rexfelum]

Before posting, I checked online to make sure I had the details of the mission right (because I couldn't reload it, wikis were the only hope), and I saw those strategic suggestions. But thanks.

Spoiler: Does this forum have spoiler code? Let's find out

In this case, because somehow I could restart from before the mission (Ironman = huh???), I just smashed those stupid things faster.

I'm not sure about the "luck" needed to save the secondary objective, though. I went at sprint speed from round 1 with a Dragon and increased sprint distance, starting from slot 3 as the wiki suggested, and that one enemy was still early enough on its route that I didn't even sight it until I'd climbed onto the road. (Then it went boom.)

Regardless, I am bothered by the disconnect between this level's texts and the conditions that cause the player to lose.

 

[unclecid]

played the campaign many times....in fact juyst replayed it right after 1.8 dropped.

found on the whole....HBS made the 'priority' missions ALOT easier...a few even had maps changed just a bit.
in BT whether its a video game or TT opfor vees should always be your number 1 priority regardless.
while easy to kill an ignored vee can put a hurting on you...especially in a defensive situation.

i have never seen the issue you had.....the opfor vees always died too quick.
and i dont see any disconnect.
its a simple straight-forward task...dont let any commandos into the command center and allies will get the turrets working in your favour.
let even one vee in and its commandos will kill/capture you ally techs.

the only bug i see is with the loading of ironman save.

maybe its an error in translation if english isnt your native tongue?

 

[Prussian Havoc]

...

Spoiler: Does this forum have spoiler code? Let's find out

In this case, because somehow I could restart from before the mission (Ironman = huh???), I just smashed those stupid things faster.

I'm not sure about the "luck" needed to save the secondary objective, though. I went at sprint speed from round 1 with a Dragon and increased sprint distance, starting from slot 3 as the wiki suggested, and that one enemy was still early enough on its route that I didn't even sight it until I'd climbed onto the road. (Then it went boom.)

...

Spoiler: Not really Spoilery but these things are fun!

Kill it! KILL IT WITH FIRE!!!" is always a solid course of action when it comes to Single Points of Failure like those APCs. :bow"

 

[commuterzombie]

There is a bit of a disconnect in that the distance at which the Arano dialogue triggers (they're getting too close, stop them!) is less than the distance an APC on a road can move in one turn.

If you're not familiar with just how far those APCs can move, or if you're unlucky with your shots in destroying the one on the far right, then it will start its move, the warning dialogue will trigger and it will roll right into the target zone and you will fail the mission. It would feel a bit fairer if Arano's warning dialogue would trigger when the APCs were a bit further out.

 

[Rexfelum]

There is a bit of a disconnect in that the distance at which the Arano dialogue triggers (they're getting too close, stop them!) is less than the distance an APC on a road can move in one turn.

If you're not familiar with just how far those APCs can move, or if you're unlucky with your shots in destroying the one on the far right, then it will start its move, the warning dialogue will trigger and it will roll right into the target zone and you will fail the mission. It would feel a bit fairer if Arano's warning dialogue would trigger when the APCs were a bit further out.

Okay, great, somebody has analyzed this more than I have. Thank you.

Another follow-up:

Just finished the mission and was reminded that the objective "Prevent commando APCs from reaching the command center" results in a +40% contract payment. That is a lot. It only makes sense if this objective were 1) difficult and 2) optional. Criterion 1, of course, is met, and criterion 2 would be possible if this worked more like those "you can do it partway and still survive, but there's another threshold for total failure" missions.

In other words, evidence is strong that this mission is not working fully as it could/should.

 

[Jade_Rook]

The secondary APC is optional, failing to stop it does not result in a failed mission. It is on the hill past the base.

All of the APCs which rush the main base near where you start must be stopped.

 

[Prussian Havoc]

...found on the whole....HBS made the 'priority' missions ALOT easier...a few even had maps changed just a bit...

Are you sure it isn’t more a factor of you being more accomplished instead of the Campaign being easier?

I'm playing the Campaign again now and I have to disagree, the Campaign is not “ALOT” easier.. As a matter of fact HBS has placed a premium on upgrading the Campaign since Launch. The following is pulled from Update Patch Notes:

There is less ambiguity in some of the narratives and text.

Balance adjustments to the Kamea story campaign:

• Lowered mechwarrior hiring cost
  
• Increased payout in c-bills for contracts
  
• Increased base salvage for contracts
  
• Increased the frequency of non-weapon rare items in salvage
  
• Increased the starting cbills from 980k to 1000k
  
• Increased the starting morale from 25 to 28
  
• Increased MechWarrior XP per mission from 400 to 500
  
• Updated difficulty settings to match new defaults

Selectively the maps have been improved:

• Many small map polish fixes - closing seams, grounding assets, clipping corrections, floating props, disappearing signs, assets clipping into each other, etc.
  Mountain Hold map bug fix, widening a specific path to prevent inefficient AI movement.
• Fixed convoy escape zone on Escarpment Valley map to prevent units from blocking mission completion
• Escarpment Valley map bug fix to tweak the road area to remove rocks that were bottlenecking and blocking convoy units.
• Expanded play bounds on Alpine Cathedral Destroy base map to include spawners to prevent pathing issues for reinforcements.
• Bleak Ridge map update to fix broken spawns.
• Sunken Hills map bug fix. Moving some spawners and shifting the terrain slightly to improve play and stop units from being blocked.

The AI is improved:

• AI improvements to Liberation: Panzyr to address AI threat assessments.
  
• AI improvements to Defense: Smithon to the AI's ability to advance towards priority targets. Also encounter re-balancing to accommodate the improved behavior.
  
• Further pathing fixes for several missions where the AI could become stuck
  
• Updated lance role tags for a number of ‘Mechs (such as “tank”, “sniper”, “scout”, etc.)

I was not quite sure what I would find as I parsed through our patch notes but this is ALOT more maintence and refinement of the Campaign than I had thought to find.

Well done Team HBS! :bow:

 

[unclecid]

Are you sure it isn’t more a factor of you being more accomplished instead of the Campaign being easier?

I'm playing the Campaign again now and I have to disagree, the Campaign is not “ALOT” easier.. As a matter of fact HBS has placed a premium on upgrading the Campaign since Launch. The following is pulled from Update Patch Notes:

There is less ambiguity in some of the narratives and text.

Balance adjustments to the Kamea story campaign:

• Lowered mechwarrior hiring cost
  
• Increased payout in c-bills for contracts
  
• Increased base salvage for contracts
  
• Increased the frequency of non-weapon rare items in salvage
  
• Increased the starting cbills from 980k to 1000k
  
• Increased the starting morale from 25 to 28
  
• Increased MechWarrior XP per mission from 400 to 500
  
• Updated difficulty settings to match new defaults

Selectively the maps have been improved:

• Many small map polish fixes - closing seams, grounding assets, clipping corrections, floating props, disappearing signs, assets clipping into each other, etc.
  Mountain Hold map bug fix, widening a specific path to prevent inefficient AI movement.
• Fixed convoy escape zone on Escarpment Valley map to prevent units from blocking mission completion
• Escarpment Valley map bug fix to tweak the road area to remove rocks that were bottlenecking and blocking convoy units.
• Expanded play bounds on Alpine Cathedral Destroy base map to include spawners to prevent pathing issues for reinforcements.
• Bleak Ridge map update to fix broken spawns.
• Sunken Hills map bug fix. Moving some spawners and shifting the terrain slightly to improve play and stop units from being blocked.

The AI is improved:

• AI improvements to Liberation: Panzyr to address AI threat assessments.
  
• AI improvements to Defense: Smithon to the AI's ability to advance towards priority targets. Also encounter re-balancing to accommodate the improved behavior.
  
• Further pathing fixes for several missions where the AI could become stuck
  
• Updated lance role tags for a number of ‘Mechs (such as “tank”, “sniper”, “scout”, etc.)

I was not quite sure what I would find as I parsed through our patch notes but this is ALOT more maintence and refinement of the Campaign than I had thought to find.

Well done Team HBS! :bow:

what you list is true...but i stand by them making the level of difficulty lower.
just for example..the one that sticks out most is getting the argo off the moon from the pirates.
where you spawn is different.
the number of turrets and turrets generators is cut in half.
same with the vees you face only a single lance.

 

[Prussian Havoc]

what you list is true...but i stand by them making the level of difficulty lower.
just for example..the one that sticks out most is getting the argo off the moon from the pirates.
where you spawn is different.
the number of turrets and turrets generators is cut in half.
same with the vees you face only a single lance.

Your example is a good one. :bow:

I just completed that mission again a few days ago, I didn’t notice any difference in the start location or Towers, but I did catch myself looking for more vehicles.

And upon further reflection, a responsive and engaged HBS is to our benefit... though I’d still prefer some greater fidelity in the existing “Enemy” Difficulty Setting, rather than lose Enemy Forces from the Vanilla game. :bow:

 

[gh0s7]

The spawn point for the player in the mission to rescue Madeira that Kamea's in the Atlas II is completely different; I remember getting gobsmacked when I did the campaign with HM.
IIRC, the map of that particular mission was "turned around", as I did the mission and handled the camera; the base is still in the same place but the way the player approaches and so on gave me feeling of novelty, so to speak. Although I managed to do it successfully the first time, it gave me the impression that the first part of hitting the base being easier and the second part of getting to and holding the second spot more difficult.

Also, when I did the mission on the OP, as I parked my Stalker in the "upper" entryway for the command centre, an APC slipped by regardless; it has been a while since the last time I did a Campaign run, but I do recall how/where exactly to park a mech to block the passage.
:shrugging emoji:

 

[Prussian Havoc]

I had hoped to rescue Lord Madeira last night but... umm... I nodded of to sleep. In my defense that particular chair is very comfortable and these old Airborne and Air Assault bones not just ole but weary. : )

Okay, okay there is no defense to falling asleep during a BATTLETECH Mission! I am sure the Grand Mistress of BATTLETECH Death was then responsible for visiting mayhem and turmoil on my last mission as I mistakenly hit “Done” thinking it was “Reserve” and proceeded to lose an Arm from a Centurion and darn near half my Brawler Archer!

I would say that High Lady Kiva took mercy on me...


...but we all know how likely THAT is! lol : )

I can only surmise that a better target presented itself and she deigned to give chase to it, rather than my just rolling over and playing Capellan Opossum! : ))

 

[Rexfelum]

The secondary APC is optional

Yes, that has been understood.

...found on the whole....HBS made the 'priority' missions ALOT easier...a few even had maps changed just a bit...

Are you sure it isn’t more a factor of you being more accomplished instead of the Campaign being easier?

I'm a bad person to ask about mission difficulty. Quick search of my e-mail . . . yes, does anyone remember this from the update for 1.3?

Revamped MechWarrior abilities - We heard a bunch of feedback about the Bulwark ability and how you HAD to take it to finish the campaign and it got us thinking…

Well, I beat the campaign before that update, and I had no idea Bulwark was "necessary." I wondered if people were approaching the game differently from how I was. When a new priority mission would appear after I'd completed just a single non-priority mission, I'd feel that the pace was too fast; at minimum, I could clear a system out of missions before accepting the priority mission, right? So I did.

Because the game is fun.

And now I'm back to Defense: Panzyr, where, just by having fun, I'm completing difficulty 3 1/2 missions with my Assault 'mechs, and Lady Arano's difficulty 3 priority missions still send me against Commandos. If I "need" anything in order to complete the campaign . . . I would assume it was Assault 'mechs.

So I'm clearly not playing the game as intended!

Not that I think there's any confusion, but my concern with Defense: Panzyr isn't with difficulty so much as with problems in design. I understand that 3 people disagreed with my most recent post arguing that it needed correction, so I'd respond to them, but I'm not sure what the issue is.

Edit: Okay, wow, still getting used to this forum. I missed most everything Prussian Havoc posted.

 

[Jade_Rook]

I seem to have misunderstood this comment:

Just finished the mission and was reminded that the objective "Prevent commando APCs from reaching the command center" results in a +40% contract payment. That is a lot. It only makes sense if this objective were 1) difficult and 2) optional. Criterion 1, of course, is met, and criterion 2 would be possible if this worked more like those "you can do it partway and still survive, but there's another threshold for total failure" missions.

In other words, evidence is strong that this mission is not working fully as it could/should.

I thought you were implying that the objective failed the second criteria and was in fact not optional...

I am no longer certain what the point you are trying to make is.

 

[Rexfelum]

I thought you were implying that the objective failed the second criteria and was in fact not optional...

I am no longer certain what the point you are trying to make is.

Ah. I should have listed more objectives in that post to make clear which was which:

In the mission, you are required to prevent all APC units from reaching the command center. The hospital is a secondary objective.

After a perfect mission, both are listed. Preventing APC units from reaching the command center gets you a bonus of +40%. The hospital objective gets something like +25%. (I can't remember.)

. . . But you can't possibly get to the victory screen without saving the command center, so the "+40% bonus" is silly! So that was just me trying to show that something isn't working as intended in the mission. For practical suggestions, I come back to this:

If you're not familiar with just how far those APCs can move, or if you're unlucky with your shots in destroying the one on the far right, then it will start its move, the warning dialogue will trigger and it will roll right into the target zone and you will fail the mission. It would feel a bit fairer if Arano's warning dialogue would trigger when the APCs were a bit further out.

I'd argue that the APC starting positions should be recalibrated so that they are more likely to land within the "Lady Arano warning distance" before Game Over. Not a huge issue; just one that improves the mission.

 

[wolfhoundtoo]

None of the APCs start that close to the command center. A couple come in behind the dropship so that unless you are very careful in the way you review the battle area you can easily miss the incoming APCs red blips. There's another that gets dropped off by a leopard that comes in from the other side (more or less) along with a SRM carrier which can sneak up on you if you aren't careful.

The problem is the ones that come from behind the dropship can get you pretty easily if you aren't reserving your mechs until they can shoot at the APCs after they move (if they are slightly out of position or have short range weapons so you can't shoot at them more than once if you get unlucky) because you only really get one shot at them then. Pretty easy to miss and assume they spawned in where you first see them.

 

[Prussian Havoc]

So this happened...

Twice...

(notice the pain the Directorate SRM Carrier inflicted between the two frames...)


I proceeded to Alpha both APCs into... wait for it... ANNIHILATION!

Luck be with me on that particular night. earlier this week!