defending italy

[geogus]

hI GUYS

Italy is my favorite country in darkest hour, probably will be at HoIIV, but there was something that always bugged me about this nation.

Italy has a dificult chalange, its starts with not so good army and air force and only decent navy, it has to build up a lot but it does not have the industrial power to do easely.

Besides Italy has the need to build special troops, like mountainers and marines, which are more expensive than the regular infantry.

However, the biggest problem IMO is the italian huge coast and of its primary targets.

A good italian player is able to conquer alone greece and Albania and go to Suez and at least hold at ethiopia.

Thats a huge coastal provinces to defend agaisnt amphibious assault.

Most of northern africa, italy itself and greece, Italy is forced to keep a lot of units stationed just in case.

Unless u go gamey, In DH the AI wasnt limited by range to launch amphibious assaults, but UK never attacked italy homeland in early years of the war evem if hadnt a single division there.

So my question is: How much of the land forces italy should keep behind to defend its homeland and greece (if conquered) while trying to advance in Europe.


If an sloopy italian player leave importants coast provinces unprotected (like the AI did with rome in WWW), will the AI sieze the oprtunity?

 

[paulatreides0]

Italy is a country that can only excel in two of the three vital fields. This was true in HoI III as well. You have to choose whether you want an airforce and an army or a navy and an army. Both are viable playstyles with different pluses an minuses.

Having a strong navy means your homeland does not need to be defended as much. You can go fight in Europe and Asia without worrying about naval invasions. This means you can shift most of your army to the fronts being contested instead of homeland defense. However, it also makes you less flexible on the ground, because you lack the benefits of a strong air force, which can act as critical force multipliers for your ground forces. You can also defend your overseas holdings.

Having a strong air force, on the other hand, means that you are more flexible on the ground and are more effective offensively. However, because your ports are not as well secured (because you don't have regional naval supremacy), you also must leave behind more troops to guard your borders. This means you can shift a smaller amount of your troops to the fronts you are fighting on. Unfortunately, this also makes it difficult to protect your holdings overseas.

Thus, the amount of forces you need to leave behind on the homeland are directly dependent on your style of play. One requires a small investment on the homeland, whereas the other requires a much larger investment. But the one with the larger investment also makes you more efficient on the ground, at the cost of the potential safety of your overseas colonies, so there's that.

You could also go for air force-navy, but that'd be silly, because you need a good army to actually get anything done.

So you have two options, with different operational and strategic considerations. Both are good options, and will allow you to play well. Trying to do all three at once, however, will only lead to disaster as then you end up with a subpar army, navy, and air force, instead of having a really good two of the three.

 

[TheRomanRuler]

You could also go for air force-navy, but that'd be silly, because you need a good army to actually get anything done.
.

Unless Italy focuses their land forces entirely on garrison and partisan hunting, and relies entirely on Germans to do the fighting on land. But doubt it would work in RL.

 

[EmperorBatman999]

I would wayside the air force and go with a Navy-Army route as Paul's strategy would go.

Playing Italy really taught me the importance of navies, which I tend to ignore in most games before I played HoI.

I would actually argue that having a navy is the only way to go, as Italy's starting navies indicate. And the only way to beat your arch nemesis the Brits is to hit them right in the colonies, which you also need to expand your colonial empire.


From my observations, the only air forces Italy needs built then are Tac and Nav Bombers and CAS. NAV will help navy by bruising Brit ships, TAC and CAG will help your army. Your Air Force can then be boosted simultaneously alongside the navy through Carriers and CAGs.

 

[Mannstien]

I would wayside the air force and go with a Navy-Army route as Paul's strategy would go.

Playing Italy really taught me the importance of navies, which I tend to ignore in most games before I played HoI.

I would actually argue that having a navy is the only way to go, as Italy's starting navies indicate. And the only way to beat your arch nemesis the Brits is to hit them right in the colonies, which you also need to expand your colonial empire.


From my observations, the only air forces Italy needs built then are Tac and Nav Bombers and CAS. NAV will help navy by bruising Brit ships, TAC and CAG will help your army. Your Air Force can then be boosted simultaneously alongside the navy through Carriers and CAGs.

I was actually thinking of forgoing TAC's even to see if I can't get some from my Northern neighbors in the sake of freeing up research and production, I think with the Med and the fact that you can now build air bases CAS and NAV will be the way to go for Italy but will need a play through or 500 to figure out the right balance.

 

[TheRomanRuler]

Historically Italy had huge numbers of militia, and many different kind of militias as well. I think that makes sense for defense of Italy: let militia garrison coasts and important locations and delay enemy long enough for regular army to arrive and push enemy back to the sea. And mountains and urban terrain are easy to defend even with militia.

 

[EmperorBatman999]

I was actually thinking of forgoing TAC's even to see if I can't get some from my Northern neighbors in the sake of freeing up research and production, I think with the Med and the fact that you can now build air bases CAS and NAV will be the way to go for Italy but will need a play through or 500 to figure out the right balance.

Good call. I still feel that TACs are important in clipping British supply lines in colonial theaters. Saving up tech for other branches should work though.

 

[GhengisKhan]

If you just went Inf Tech, Fighter/Naval bomber techs and maybe Navy techs excluding carriers ( Italy in one big carrier) it think you could have a solid Inf army and enough power to hold off the brits and maybe even seal the Med.

 

[Shatterfury]

I don`t know about game itself but in real life Italy only did well navy wise, army and air force wise it was underperforming big time.

 

[Leoap]

Surely you have to Hevely relay in navy ....
If you have control of the Mediterranean you are safe ...
Of course conquering Suez is a must for the Italian player if he want s to have a chance to succeed

 

[griffor]

Italy is indefensible. Any nation that actually elected 'bunga bunga' Silvio Berlusconi (more then once) is beyond all hope of being held in high regard. The only thing funnier would be a nation that made Donald Trump its leader.

your gonna be super sad than when he wins i guess than, people vote for him just to spite people like you

 

[Secret Master]

We aren't making fun of Italians or dragging the thread off topic by talking about political leaders from far outside the period.

Further posts of this nature will result in the thread being closed.

 

[Mannstien]

My best guess is (Have we seen the Italian focus tree yet?) that Italy will need to use her probably 3? starting research slots to focus on very specific goals early in order to stand up in the late game.

Edit: Found it from the old DD about Italy though it's cut off my Focus will be on Construction and that research slot where possible at first before I get to anything else once the hopefully Ethiopian adventure ends I will try to stay out of the war until 41' if possible depending on what state my Armed forces are in by than and in particular my Navy. If it's 41' and in historical than I should get a bit of pressure off as Britain tries to defend the Empire and hopefully I have a nice big NAV force to help clear the Med with my precious capital ships.

 

[griffor]

My best guess is (Have we seen the Italian focus tree yet?) that Italy will need to use her probably 3? starting research slots to focus on very specific goals early in order to stand up in the late game.

Edit: Found it from the old DD about Italy though it's cut off my Focus will be on Construction and that research slot where possible at first before I get to anything else once the hopefully Ethiopian adventure ends I will try to stay out of the war until 41' if possible depending on what state my Armed forces are in by than and in particular my Navy. If it's 41' and in historical than I should get a bit of pressure off as Britain tries to defend the Empire and hopefully I have a nice big NAV force to help clear the Med with my precious capital ships.

well italy is a major so it will start with 4 at least and i think they have about the same amount of factory's as japan so depending if we follow world war wed we may get some idea's how to build our industry up with slightly better resources.

 

[Secret Master]

Has anyone done a 1943 entry as Italy in HOI3? (I don't think anyone has done it in WWW)

I'm wondering, because despite Italy's poor performance in the war, the goal was for Italy to be ready in 1943 in the first place. She jumped in the war too early.

I'm thinking that I might try to do something similar in HOI4. Delay entry until 1943, and see if NFs and industrial production will make my contribution better.

Ohhh, and if I don't enter the war as Italy, it will slow down US preparations to join the war. (No Stab In the Back to increase tension)

Then again, by 1943, the Axis is more or less screwed if the US is attacked by Japan in December of 41, isn't it?

 

[paulatreides0]

Has anyone done a 1943 entry as Italy in HOI3? (I don't think anyone has done it in WWW)

I'm wondering, because despite Italy's poor performance in the war, the goal was for Italy to be ready in 1943 in the first place. She jumped in the war too early.

I'm thinking that I might try to do something similar in HOI4. Delay entry until 1943, and see if NFs and industrial production will make my contribution better.

Ohhh, and if I don't enter the war as Italy, it will slow down US preparations to join the war. (No Stab In the Back to increase tension)

Then again, by 1943, the Axis is more or less screwed if the US is attacked by Japan in December of 41, isn't it?

Although, IIRC, weren't a lot of the problems that the Italians faced IRL organization based? Which is fine, because that kind of stuff takes plenty of time as well, but in HoI, the game is abstracted in such a way that that's not an issue.

 

[Quendallon]

(Have we seen the Italian focus tree yet?)

We have.

 

[EmperorBatman999]

Although, IIRC, weren't a lot of the problems that the Italians faced IRL organization based? Which is fine, because that kind of stuff takes plenty of time as well, but in HoI, the game is abstracted in such a way that that's not an issue.

Yes, Italy had supply issues both on the production and delivery sides.

Italy was one of the lesser-industrialized countries in Europe in the 1930s. It didn't have an adequate industrial base in 1940 to wage a long-term war man-to-man with industrial-colonial giants like Britain. The best the Italians could hope for was finer-crafted equipment made in smaller quantities since it didn't have mass-production capabilities. Consequently it needed German manufacturing to make the difference.

Supply-side was a challenge as well, especially since the Italians chose not to expand their North African harbors to accommodate large-scale supply shipments, meaning only so many troops and supplies could be shipped at once. It didn't help that the Italians failed to achieve the hoped-for naval supremacy of the Mediterranean, never got around to taking Malta, and never managed to take down the other major British naval ports, so their supply convoys were constantly exposed to attack. Finally most of Italian industry was concentrated in the north due to cultural and economic biases that favored the more prosperous regions of the North, meaning that any supplies manufactured up there had to be moved even further to reach their final destination, putting them more at risk for attack by land or sea, and also giving Allied Bomber Command nice tightly-packed factory targets to hit.

With factory location mattering more in HoI4, Italy's industrial challenges might be better highlighted than in HoI3 where battleships appeared as if they were built out of inland Torino!

 

[TheRomanRuler]

Yes, Italy had supply issues both on the production and delivery sides.

Italy was one of the lesser-industrialized countries in Europe in the 1930s. It didn't have an adequate industrial base in 1940 to wage a long-term war man-to-man with industrial-colonial giants like Britain. The best the Italians could hope for was finer-crafted equipment made in smaller quantities since it didn't have mass-production capabilities. Consequently it needed German manufacturing to make the difference.

Supply-side was a challenge as well, especially since the Italians chose not to expand their North African harbors to accommodate large-scale supply shipments, meaning only so many troops and supplies could be shipped at once. It didn't help that the Italians failed to achieve the hoped-for naval supremacy of the Mediterranean, never got around to taking Malta, and never managed to take down the other major British naval ports, so their supply convoys were constantly exposed to attack. Finally most of Italian industry was concentrated in the north due to cultural and economic biases that favored the more prosperous regions of the North, meaning that any supplies manufactured up there had to be moved even further to reach their final destination, putting them more at risk for attack by land or sea, and also giving Allied Bomber Command nice tightly-packed factory targets to hit.

With factory location mattering more in HoI4, Italy's industrial challenges might be better highlighted than in HoI3 where battleships appeared as if they were built out of inland Torino!

Also, well trained but badly equipped troops can challenge, if not often match, decently trained decently equipped troops. And Italians were very badly trained in general, it was believed that too much training would reduce soldiers morale.

 

[paulatreides0]

Unless Italy focuses their land forces entirely on garrison and partisan hunting, and relies entirely on Germans to do the fighting on land. But doubt it would work in RL.

One must also consider how useful that would be. Aircraft are ultimately just force multipliers, and without adequate ground troops to support then they are not all that useful. Making Germany do all the ground work won't just mean that you are missing out on providing vital troops to the Eastern Front, if you choose to go that route, but also that your aircraft might not achieve peak efficiency, since only so many aircraft can be of use at any one time.

Yes, Italy had supply issues both on the production and delivery sides.

Italy was one of the lesser-industrialized countries in Europe in the 1930s. It didn't have an adequate industrial base in 1940 to wage a long-term war man-to-man with industrial-colonial giants like Britain. The best the Italians could hope for was finer-crafted equipment made in smaller quantities since it didn't have mass-production capabilities. Consequently it needed German manufacturing to make the difference.

Supply-side was a challenge as well, especially since the Italians chose not to expand their North African harbors to accommodate large-scale supply shipments, meaning only so many troops and supplies could be shipped at once. It didn't help that the Italians failed to achieve the hoped-for naval supremacy of the Mediterranean, never got around to taking Malta, and never managed to take down the other major British naval ports, so their supply convoys were constantly exposed to attack. Finally most of Italian industry was concentrated in the north due to cultural and economic biases that favored the more prosperous regions of the North, meaning that any supplies manufactured up there had to be moved even further to reach their final destination, putting them more at risk for attack by land or sea, and also giving Allied Bomber Command nice tightly-packed factory targets to hit.

With factory location mattering more in HoI4, Italy's industrial challenges might be better highlighted than in HoI3 where battleships appeared as if they were built out of inland Torino!

I still feel that in HoI IV, the level of abstraction will save Italy a lot of grief, so to speak. While it's true that they will have a bit more difficulty in producing things like battleships (compared to HoI 3), in general, the level of abstraction cannot adequately represent the issues you've pointed out. As well as the issues related to training and the army's ability to fight as a whole instead of as much smaller, disparate groups. The player's ability to control and properly fix up pre-war Italy only makes it even less likely to face such issues.

This is not necessarily bad, as it means that Italy will be fun instead of painful to play, and will better enable sandboxing. On the other hand, it also makes me a bit sad that it takes away from some of the historical difficulty that Italy faced. Mixed feelings, mixed feelings.