"Defenders of Dievas" worth it?

[Wakizashi]

I'm about to create my first Pagan Reformation, as the Romuva King of Lithuania.

Now, I was considering going for Unyielding nature and taking Ancestor Veneration as a doctrine, mostly because I love Eldership succession and would like to keep it in place.

However, I am doubting now if I should instead take Defenders of Dievas instead, as it sort of combines the two. Now I have read that Defenders of Dievas isn't all that good in and of itself, but I have no idea if that is true or not. And of course, taking the Romuva-only doctrine does open two slots for me, one for a different doctrine and one for a different religious nature.

What to do?

 

[eastcoastceojam]

Not sure what year you are starting in. For Romuva reformation in 769, I recommend Proselytizing, Agnatic + Unrelenting, Hierocratic. Here is my reasons why:

• Since Romuva is resistant to conversion, choosing any other nature will make it take centuries to convert your Old Romuva provinces, which limits the usefulness of Unyielding. Proselyting will also make your vassals convert their counties for you, which they wont do with any other nature.
• Agnatic is a better succession law than Ancestor Veneration, as you just land your best son, and he automatically inherits.
• Unrelenting is sneaky good in 769, since after you reform, you will take a ton of pagan attrition when you fight Slavic and Suomenusko nations, which surround you. In 769, there are almost no holdings in the Baltic areas, so supply limit is often only 1-2k. The first time I reformed Romuva, I didn't chose this one, and I watched my retinues melt away in every war, costing me tons of prestige I could have use for other things. Unrelenting is also incompatible with Unyielding, so that makes it another good reason to chose Proselytizing.
• Hierocratic is better than it sounds, since he will start as your vassal, and give the ability to grant divorces, excommunicate, and get claims on other rulers of your faith.

Just my opinion- hope this helps

 

[Wakizashi]

Not sure what year you are starting in. For Romuva reformation in 769, I recommend Proselytizing, Agnatic + Unrelenting, Hierocratic. Here is my reasons why:

• Since Romuva is resistant to conversion, choosing any other nature will make it take centuries to convert your Old Romuva provinces, which limits the usefulness of Unyielding. Proselyting will also make your vassals convert their counties for you, which they wont do with any other nature.
• Agnatic is a better succession law than Ancestor Veneration, as you just land your best son, and he automatically inherits.
• Unrelenting is sneaky good in 769, since after you reform, you will take a ton of pagan attrition when you fight Slavic and Suomenusko nations, which surround you. In 769, there are almost no holdings in the Baltic areas, so supply limit is often only 1-2k. The first time I reformed Romuva, I didn't chose this one, and I watched my retinues melt away in every war, costing me tons of prestige I could have use for other things. Unrelenting is also incompatible with Unyielding, so that makes it another good reason to chose Proselytizing.
• Hierocratic is better than it sounds, since he will start as your vassal, and give the ability to grant divorces, excommunicate, and get claims on other rulers of your faith.

Just my opinion- hope this helps

That is definitely helpful, thanks! And yes, I did start my game in 769 and worked up to a reformation from there.
About your suggestions:

• Very useful information indeed. I was considering Proselytizing, especially since I have almost all Romuva territories under my rule already and as such will be stuck with a lot of unreformed Slavic/Suomenusko pagans if I expand any further. But I hadn't considered the Old Romuva conversion issue that would result from not taking Proselytizing, thanks for the tip.
• The thing is that I actually really like the Eldership succession for roleplaying purposes (especially while still being tribal), as well as making it a bit more challenging to play than with an Open style of succession. Which is why I'm thinking of perhaps taking the Defenders of Dievas doctrine.
• I hadn't considered the fact that as a reformed faith, I'll be taking more attrition in unreformed pagan realms. That is definitely a hugely important aspect for the near future, thanks for reminding me.
• I was actually already set on taking Hierocratic. I see a lot of people stating things like "why take anything but Temporal?" but I feel like a secular tribal ruler taking over supreme religious power of the Romuva is a bit of an easy way out. Aside from that, I kind of like dealing with a religious head in charge, and from a roleplaying perspective I just don't like the idea of hereditary religious leadership.

 

[eastcoastceojam]

The other issue with Temporal is that you won't be able to excommunication your rivals or grant claims to yourself as the Temporal head, all things which your vassal religious head will be happy to do for you.

Temporal also complicates Ancestor Veneration, as you will never be able to venerate your formerly played character unless you give the religious head title to your heir at least 3 days before you die. Not sure if this is working as designed, or a bug that will be fixed one day. There are a couple good threads on work-arounds, but it makes it more complicated than it should be.

Enjoy your reformation!

 

[Bernard95]

• Hierocratic is better than it sounds, since he will start as your vassal, and give the ability to grant divorces, excommunicate, and get claims on other rulers of your faith.

You know, I forgot about that. Just like when you have a vassal Pope or Patriarch as a Christian, your religious head would be your loyal lap dog. You don't need to be the religious head when he'll just do anything you want.

 

[CathyMe]

Short answer, no. Didn't even bother looking at it in my own romuva playthough. I don't think the set-up recommended before is bad but is not what I would have gone through.
Proselytizing doesn't help with faster conversion, at least not in my experience. I picked unyielding (since that is the only way to keep the defensive bonus) and Prussia was completely converted in about 2 centuries, which may sound long but in a 769 isn't. If you want faster conversion, dogmatic with a really good court chaplain is the way to go.
As for doctrines i picked enatic clans (self evident) and astrology for access to hermetics. Another personal favorite is stability. The lack of short reign penalty and the option to increase one of your ruler's attributes every 5 years is more useful than it sounds
When it comes to leadership, i either pick temporal when I plan to use GHWs (but since you are the only romuva realms is not that useful in this case) or autonomous in all other playthroughs. There is absolutely no way I will ever let the AI decide GHWs.

 

[Wakizashi]

One thing I have noticed is that since reforming, basically every other pagan ruler except for the Tengri refuse marriages with my realm due to religious differences. Is this normal after becoming reformed pagan, or is that a result of picking Proselytizing nature?

 

[Dragatus]

Defenders of Dievas is okay compared to standard doctrines, but weak for a unique one. Most unique doctrines give you all the effects of a standard doctrine with parts of a second. That said, if you will not take Unyielding nature, Defenders of Dievas is a reasonable alternative to Ancestor Veneration. I'd personally still take Ancestor Veneration though because being hard to convert doesn't come into play unless you lose provinces.

Proselytizing doesn't help with faster conversion, at least not in my experience.

Proselytizing does speed up conversion. I checked the game files and it makes court chaplains convert the religion of a province in 60% of the regular time (on average). Of course province conversion time is still random, so if you get lucky you might convert them quickly regardless.

Cosmopolitan has the opposite effect and it takes 250% of the regular time to convert a province (on average).

One thing I have noticed is that since reforming, basically every other pagan ruler except for the Tengri refuse marriages with my realm due to religious differences. Is this normal after becoming reformed pagan, or is that a result of picking Proselytizing nature?

It has nothing to do with Proselytizing nature. Many reformed pagan religions simply do not have the same option for intermarriage as their unreformed counterpart. This appears to be somewhat inconsistent though and may require PDX to have a look at it.

 

[Dimitri Cosmos]

Defenders of Dievas is not worth it, because you don't need resistance to proselytizing, if you are the toughest ruler around, which you eventually become. I hope they rework "Defenders of Dievas", because it's Romuva-specific and fits Romuva from the historical perspective very well, but it's just useless from the strategical perspective.

It's true that it'll be difficult to convert Old Romuva counties to reformed Romuva without Proselytizing , but only while you are tribal. As soon as you become feudal, it will become four times easier.

In this playtrough, I reformed Romuva like this:

• Unyielding (because it has no downsides and I like to keep the big defensive bonus; it also fits the historic narrative of Baltic pagans);
• Ancestor Veneration (because I love Eldership succession; and potentially having venerated ancestors is nice; it also fits the historic narrative of Baltic pagans);
• Astrology (because I want to join the Hermetic Society - the only other society available to pagans)
• Temporal (because you need some kind of religious head to get venerated ancestors, and why shouldn't it be you– the ruler?)

If I didn't want Astrology, I would choose Animistic, Meritocracy or Monasticism.

If I didn't want Astrology and Eldership succession, I would choose Daring + Sea-bound. Note: travelling the rivers can be restricted by certain fortifications. So, Sea-bound is of limited use later on.

If I didn't want Unyielding, I would choose Unrelenting and something else. However, Unrelenting is not that useful in the long-term, because with Military tech at level 4, you ignore the pagan attrition anyway. Plus, with enough money you can use forts to your advantage, which also remove the attrition penalty.

I've read that Astrology and Stability is synergetic and I tried this combination once, but I actually didn't find Stability that useful. There's a 5 year cooldown for upgrading the skills, it gives only 1 point and it's quite costly if you do it on yourself and I think that you can do it only once (?) per character. As to the short reign penalty, I don't find it that big of a deal. Plus majesty tech reduces it anyway.

 

[Dragatus]

A bit of warning regarding Animistic and Unrelenting, they both give a unit bonus and unit bonuses provided by reformation features get overwritten instead of added together. Character modifiers also get overwritten but the game accounts for that when you combine Monastic doctrine and Autonomous leadership.

What happens is that if you pick Animistic as the first doctrine and Unrelenting as the second, you only get the 10% attack bonus from Unrelenting (it overwrites the morale bonus from Animistic) and if you revers the order you would only get the 5% morale bonus of Animistic (it overwrites the attack bonus from Unrelenting).

Both will also overwrite the inherent 30% levy bonus of Norse and Tengri, the 30% Light Cavalry offense & Defense bonus of Tengri, and the 20% levy & garrison bonus you get from Unyielding nature. (Bonuses are applied in order: nature, first doctrine, second doctrine, leadership type.)

That arguably makes the Tengri unique doctrine even worse that Defenders of Dievas, because it makes you lose a 30% levy bonus, a 30% LC offense bonus, and a 30% LC defense bonus in return for a 10% attack bonus to all units and ignoring defensive attrition. Defenders of Dievas may give few bonuses, but at least it doesn't make you lose any features.

If you don't care about achievements, there is a mod that deals with the issue: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1581542560

Animistic also has an additional bug where only player characters will get a bonus from their initiation rites. AI controlled character still get their facial tattoos and pick a bonus type, but the bonus fails to get applied. This means you only benefit from the rites if you play an underage ruler who reaches adulthood. If your heir is AI controlled (s)he gets no bonus. I made a mod that deals with that, but it likewise disables achievements: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1582535080

 

[eastcoastceojam]

I forgot to mention this in my earlier post, but has anyone tried Seabound as a Reformed doctrine for Romuva?

I haven't tried this myself, but I would think if you start in 769 as Prussia, Seabound could help keep your MA high, and let you raid better targets than the single holding tribal counties around de jure Lithuania. Of course, you can raid by boat as a Tribal without this doctrine, but paying the full ship maintenance is going to seriously dent your raiding profit margin.

 

[Dimitri Cosmos]

I forgot to mention this in my earlier post, but has anyone tried Seabound as a Reformed doctrine for Romuva?

I haven't tried this myself, but I would think if you start in 769 as Prussia, Seabound could help keep your MA high, and let you raid better targets than the single holding tribal counties around de jure Lithuania. Of course, you can raid by boat as a Tribal without this doctrine, but paying the full ship maintenance is going to seriously dent your raiding profit margin.

What's wrong with looting in not so distant cities of East Francia/Bavaria with Reaver character? Selling those prisoners is sweet, sweet money. I say not "so distant", because I usually have Lithuania, Estonia, Poland and, if I'm lucky, Pomerania under my control before 800. I think you'll need to control at least 3 holy sites to reform anyway, as well as sufficient amount of piety and moral authority of at least 50, which involves the mentioned conquests anyway (even if the sites that you control are in Chelmno, Riga and Podlaise)

 

[Wakizashi]

I forgot to mention this in my earlier post, but has anyone tried Seabound as a Reformed doctrine for Romuva?

I haven't tried this myself, but I would think if you start in 769 as Prussia, Seabound could help keep your MA high, and let you raid better targets than the single holding tribal counties around de jure Lithuania. Of course, you can raid by boat as a Tribal without this doctrine, but paying the full ship maintenance is going to seriously dent your raiding profit margin.

I've read about this too, but the thing is so far I haven't been able to get enoug tech to my coastal provinces to even build a port in the first place. So for the time being, the usefulness of Seabound is very limited for me.

 

[Wakizashi]

Defenders of Dievas is not worth it, because you don't need resistance to proselytizing, if you are the toughest ruler around, which you eventually become. I hope they rework "Defenders of Dievas", because it's Romuva-specific and fits Romuva from the historical perspective very well, but it's just useless from the strategical perspective.

It's true that it'll be difficult to convert Old Romuva counties to reformed Romuva without Proselytizing , but only while you are tribal. As soon as you become feudal, it will become four times easier.

In this playtrough, I reformed Romuva like this:

• Unyielding (because it has no downsides and I like to keep the big defensive bonus; it also fits the historic narrative of Baltic pagans);
• Ancestor Veneration (because I love Eldership succession; and potentially having venerated ancestors is nice; it also fits the historic narrative of Baltic pagans);
• Astrology (because I want to join the Hermetic Society - the only other society available to pagans)
• Temporal (because you need some kind of religious head to get venerated ancestors, and why shouldn't it be you– the ruler?)

If I didn't want Astrology, I would choose Animistic, Meritocracy or Monasticism.

If I didn't want Astrology and Eldership succession, I would choose Daring + Sea-bound. Note: travelling the rivers can be restricted by certain fortifications. So, Sea-bound is of limited use later on.

If I didn't want Unyielding, I would choose Unrelenting and something else. However, Unrelenting is not that useful in the long-term, because with Military tech at level 4, you ignore the pagan attrition anyway. Plus, with enough money you can use forts to your advantage, which also remove the attrition penalty.

I've read that Astrology and Stability is synergetic and I tried this combination once, but I actually didn't find Stability that useful. There's a 5 year cooldown for upgrading the skills, it gives only 1 point and it's quite costly if you do it on yourself and I think that you can do it only once (?) per character. As to the short reign penalty, I don't find it that big of a deal. Plus majesty tech reduces it anyway.

Interesting take as well, thanks for that. I have already reformed for the time being with Unrelenting and Defenders of Dievas, but I will keep this in mind for future Romuva games. I'm definitely with you on loving Eldership succession law.

 

[Dragatus]

By the time you reform the religion, chances are you'll have several vassals. You can use their ships to raid instead of your own and avoid paying for their upkeep at the cost of vassal opinion. If you take Warmongering nature you won't even lose vassal opinion.

 

[Wakizashi]

What's wrong with looting in not so distant cities of East Francia/Bavaria with Reaver character? Selling those prisoners is sweet, sweet money. I say not "so distant", because I usually have Lithuania, Estonia, Poland and, if I'm lucky, Pomerania under my control before 800. I think you'll need to control at least 3 holy sites to reform anyway, as well as sufficient amount of piety and moral authority of at least 50, which involves the mentioned conquests anyway (even if the sites that you control are in Chelmno, Riga and Podlaise)

Pomerania has been gobbled up by the Saxons in my game, unfortunately. Which makes far away raiding into Catholic territories that bit harder. May need to start cracking down on some Germans soon.

 

[TheDarkMaster]

A couple of other notes that might be useful when choosing your doctrines:

• Temporal: This is hands down the best choice if you intend to power game and create the strongest religion you can. A normal religious head is of marginal use for most pagans, as they tend to be one realm shows anyway. The crown or other symbol of office that the temporal head gets also gives more bonuses than autonomous does. On top of this, all landed members of the dynasty that holds the temporal office gets +2 prestige and +1 piety, including the ruler themselves. The exception is for Africans, as their crown goes in the same slot as their fetish masks.
• Ancestor Veneration: This is a great option for roleplaying, but is unfortunately probably the worst of the succession law choices for actual effectiveness. Meritocracy or a Clans doctrine is stronger (though at the moment, enatic clans is quite buggy). As was also pointed out, it doesn't work properly with Temporal.
• Province conversions: As was said, the AI will always convert provinces of the wrong religion if and only if the nature chosen was proselytizing. Dogmatic rulers will always convert provinces of other pagan faiths, including your old faith. Unyielding rulers will convert provinces only if the ruler is zealous. Same with warlike, but only on pagan provinces. Peaceful and cosmopolitan rulers will never use the proselytizing action.

This should give you a better idea of the relative power of the options on offer. I actually recommend not always picking the best option, as that can be rather boring and makes each game feel fairly similar. Mix it up from one playthrough to another, as playing with Eldership feels different from Open or from gavelkind appointment.

 

[Dimitri Cosmos]

Pomerania has been gobbled up by the Saxons in my game, unfortunately. Which makes far away raiding into Catholic territories that bit harder. May need to start cracking down on some Germans soon.

It happens to me often, too. But not all of it. And it breaks off quite fast due to gavelkind. Quite often, in the next generation.

 

[Wakizashi]

It happens to me often, too. But not all of it. And it breaks off quite fast due to gavelkind. Quite often, in the next generation.

I'm waiting to see if that would happen soon. I used Pomerania to try the new Tributary state option (the one that only lasts as long as the suzerain ruler is alive), but unfortunately they got taken by Saxons soon afterwards when I was in the middle of getting my Reformation done, and I wasn't fast enough to prevent it.

 

[Wakizashi]

A couple of other notes that might be useful when choosing your doctrines:

• Temporal: This is hands down the best choice if you intend to power game and create the strongest religion you can. A normal religious head is of marginal use for most pagans, as they tend to be one realm shows anyway. The crown or other symbol of office that the temporal head gets also gives more bonuses than autonomous does. On top of this, all landed members of the dynasty that holds the temporal office gets +2 prestige and +1 piety, including the ruler themselves. The exception is for Africans, as their crown goes in the same slot as their fetish masks.
• Ancestor Veneration: This is a great option for roleplaying, but is unfortunately probably the worst of the succession law choices for actual effectiveness. Meritocracy or a Clans doctrine is stronger (though at the moment, enatic clans is quite buggy). As was also pointed out, it doesn't work properly with Temporal.
• Province conversions: As was said, the AI will always convert provinces of the wrong religion if and only if the nature chosen was proselytizing. Dogmatic rulers will always convert provinces of other pagan faiths, including your old faith. Unyielding rulers will convert provinces only if the ruler is zealous. Same with warlike, but only on pagan provinces. Peaceful and cosmopolitan rulers will never use the proselytizing action.

This should give you a better idea of the relative power of the options on offer. I actually recommend not always picking the best option, as that can be rather boring and makes each game feel fairly similar. Mix it up from one playthrough to another, as playing with Eldership feels different from Open or from gavelkind appointment.

Good analysis, thanks for that. I can definitely see how Temporal is the most powerful option, but like you said it is sometimes more interesting to not take the power path. I find that having a High Priest separate from my character makes the religion feel more fleshed out.