Defender of the Faith is still ridiculous

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Rashie

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When the game has major countries such as Spain and France possibly intervening frequently in spats between princes in the HRE in the 1500s on a religious basis, there's an issue there even if you think the game should be made harder for those that plays as minor tags.

If this game was more true to real life than that, countries such as the French wouldn't mind such things going on as a destabilizing element in the HRE for the Habsburgs to have contend with.
 
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It’s a dumb mechanic.

Two thoughts to make it more bearable (not necessarily exclusive):

1) It’s only available for a state that has taken Religious Ideas. I don’t necessarily think it should require the entire chain to be finished. Perhaps unlocked at say the third Idea to prevent players from taking the Idea set and not paying anything.

2) Cost for taking the DotF scales with the Tier. Tier 1 would only cost 250 ducats but Tier V would cost 2000. Some of this could come back to the office holder in the form of tithes when a new tier is reached (free cash is not ideal but I’m offering something to incentivize growing the faith)
 
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Vin55

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It’s a dumb mechanic.

Two thoughts to make it more bearable (not necessarily exclusive):

1) It’s only available for a state that has taken Religious Ideas. I don’t necessarily think it should require the entire chain to be finished. Perhaps unlocked at say the third Idea to prevent players from taking the Idea set and not paying anything.

2) Cost for taking the DotF scales with the Tier. Tier 1 would only cost 250 ducats but Tier V would cost 2000. Some of this could come back to the office holder in the form of tithes when a new tier is reached (free cash is not ideal but I’m offering something to incentivize growing the faith)
3rd make the war offenisve for the DoF, so that the willingness to defend is lower and the debt is taken into consideration.
 
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Sverige

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On one hand, I get where you're coming from.

On the other hand, get good, its not that hard to deal with. Yeah I had to launch three wars as morocoo to finish raping Spain but so what? I think it makes sense to me that France and Austria freaked the fuck out that Spain was being reconquered by Muslims.
 
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tfw you declare war on Mali as a fetishist and super Mamluks who doesn't know you exists walks all the way across the sahara to crush you into the dirt.

tfw you have to be prepared to fight the Timurids if you want to take out Brunei as Majapahit.
 
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I must be missing something. Can you take land as a non-warleader from an enemy? Especially in the HRE, shouldn't that give you like one billion AE.

While it's seldom useful, you can. As non-war leader you can negotiate with opposing war leader to take stuff, if you have it occupied and they're willing to negotiate with you before caving to your allied war leader.

Most often, this will work if you enforce peace and get 100% occupations on war leader + all its allies provinces, immediately pause when occupying the final province to get 100%.

There are usually alternative methods that are more viable, but at least in principle you could use this to do things like making HRE electors vassals from outside etc.

tfw you have to be prepared to fight the Timurids if you want to take out Brunei as Majapahit.

This is the greatest cancer outcome with DotF. You have nations drastically increase the length of wars by doing literally nothing but technically being in the war.
 
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Harczi

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tfw you declare war on Mali as a fetishist and super Mamluks who doesn't know you exists walks all the way across the sahara to crush you into the dirt.
Maybe they hired Jack Sparrow and borrowed his compass, come on man, they need to defend their broskis with whom they have probably never interacted with!
 
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I must be missing something. Can you take land as a non-warleader from an enemy? Especially in the HRE, shouldn't that give you like one billion AE.

I was playing Hard Montferrat and converted to Protestantism. I was totally encircled by Catholics and had no options for expansion. My way of getting around it was waiting for my ally Austria to claim DOTF and then wait until they called me into wars so I could then declare my own wars which Austria would not join because we were fighting in the same war. Even with that it was a very boring campaign with a lot of speed 5 and hitting the development button...

There was no way to co-belligerent anyone because I couldn't get a CB on a Protestant nation, which means declaring No-CB wars in the HRE... So I was basically screwed either way.
Yes you can take land as non Co beleigerent, that's why if you leave your allies for too long, they'll take the land they've occupied. Vs the war leader the AE should be normal but vs his allies it'll be increased. I did reccomend it several pages back as a strat
 
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And what if they have no non-Catholic allies? I'm a Protestant completely encircled by Catholics.

And what happens when France/Austria/Spain immediately reclaims DOTF? Do this every single time?

People are giving all sorts of hacky ways to get around it but nobody is giving any justification for WHY it should work this way or how it improves the game...
Sorry man, but you are a protestant nation surrounded by catholics, complaining you can't attack because there is a strong dotf.

The solution is very easy.

I like the dotf mechanics. Its one more diplo relationship to consider. Plus it can slow spain and otto down, and it makes for more exciting wars when a wp draws into a dotf pull.
 
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agonistes

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To all the people defending Defender of Faith. Have you ever played a country that isnt a major and not catholic? Many of you didnt seem to with how you talk about it being something wich halts expansion when thats the last thing it does.
I don't know what you are trying to say here.

Dotf absolutely can slow expansion.
 
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agonistes

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I came back to this game after a looonger while. I went for Byzantium->Roman Empire campaign to get some skill back.

The year is 1525. Poland is the DOTF and its rivals are: Me, Muscovy and England. England is so far away it might as well not exist for the purpose of this rant.

This means that I can't just get it to lose DOTF.

Then you might say "Okay then, you can go for the Muslims" except I really can't because the Mamluks are the DOTF and their rivals are, wait for it..

...Me, QQ (Shia) and England.

This means, once again, that I can't just get them to lose DOTF.

My only options are:

A) Scrapping the barrel by trying to attack QQ (Which I will win but it will be low gain high input)

B) Going for Poland (Which while winnable, it doesn't solve DOTF issues)

In case option B would succeed there's nothing to stop DOTF from being quickly re-purchased (Since AI has very weird priorities when it comes to the way it handles money) or ping-ponging between France and Poland.


I do kinda feel like people most people in support of the current situation just play a medium-major sized catholic nation and by the time of encountering a DOTF of another religion they are just a blob wihch can steamroll over anything they want to.

I don't usually say this on any forum, but the whole 'you only play mid-majors' is bs, so I'll say it: if dotf is giving you headaches, you have much room for improvement as a player. Granada can swallow Spain/France with a strong dotf, for gosh sake. Morocco can smash Castille and Portugal.

There are so many solutions to this (and other) problem(s). Try doing something different rather than just cry cry cry about dotf, otto, bi etc.
 
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I think it should be harder for defender to join against heretics. I can see, how early France/Castile claiming this title would naturally join, say, Hungary against ottos. But why the heck it joins Bosnia against Serbia (happened to me just now - Castile claimed DotF like in 1450/60...) I think for heretics it might be neighbors only. This way you can still do your protestant/Catholics wars in HRE without triggering Spain.

OR maybe defender should have more incentive to white peace from a conflict against heretics (something like +20 and scaling)...

Also Mamluks joining against unmet Sahel nations is absurd - that's definitely should be changed
 
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I don't usually say this on any forum, but the whole 'you only play mid-majors' is bs, so I'll say it: if dotf is giving you headaches, you have much room for improvement as a player. Granada can swallow Spain/France with a strong dotf, for gosh sake. Morocco can smash Castille and Portugal.

There are so many solutions to this (and other) problem(s). Try doing something different rather than just cry cry cry about dotf, otto, bi etc.
Right, seems like your ability to read with understanding is severely impaired so I will try again in plainest terms possible.

I don't "cry" about ottomans (Haven't even mentioned them so who's bsing?) or anything else so this is bs about as useless as it gets in discussions like these.

What I do complain about is the AI cuckolding other religions willing to total war them over an OPM.

I know it's hard to comprehend that "git gud" isn't always the best answer but I am sure you will eventually get there. :)
 
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Antarctica7

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Okay pls play a major or mid sized Catholic country or Sunni country. Inform me of how many times DOTF stopped your expansion.
If you are a Catholic country attacking a Sunni country or vice versa, you would have to contend with the enemy DOTF. And yes, the DOTF will be less threatening if you are a major or middle sized country because you are a major and middle sized country and not a much weaker minor, obviously.

I don't get why you keep bringing this back to Catholics though, if you are in the HRE and surrounded by Protestants, you are going to have to deal with diplomatic penalties with your neighbours including having to fight their DOTF if you stay Catholic.

Even if this system did seem to benefit Catholics or Sunni only like you contend essentially, I still don't see how that would be an issue because all religions in the game have a unique situation and a unique set of bonuses and part of picking a nation is accepting the benefits and costs of the religion of your country- there is no reason for there to be any parity here anymore than there is any reason to say it is unfair that Catholics don't get a discipline boost like Protestants and Orthodox do.

Basically everything you have been saying here boils down to "it is harder to expand as a minor nation with a heretic religion to your neighbours" and I don't see how that is a problem at all. Many of the other criticisms here of the DOTF have merit, but not that it adds difficulty for playthroughs that should be more difficult (such as starting as Montferrat on Hard, switching to Protestant and angering your neighbours and then blaming the game mechanics when France helps them clobber you, a tiny and unprotected nation that aggressed against them).
 
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RichardOlcese

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I agree on two things. And two things only. DoF needed a rewamp, most definitely. And the way Emperor DLC did it was wrong. Wrong in many levels. Emperor DLC's handling of the HRE and Catholicism was quite frankly very bad. Very very very bad. Even four times very bad. Is that fixable? I don't think so. I don't think they will even try. You fix this, and there's a leak somewhere else. They have taken the Europa out of Europa Universalis for me.
 
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Larva

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Oh no, you have to think how to expand and can't simply vomit your color at random. How horrible!
I suppose it's less about this...just like in my example - there is no plausibility for a DotF Castile to join Bosnia against Serbia in 1450s. And probably same can be said for ...I don't know - protestant Dithmarschen against Catholic Bremen or what not. It's just silly from any perspective - 'historical', gameplay, fun...
Mamluks joining Mali against fetishists is on same and even beyond that level, while quite marginal in terms of occurrence
 
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Godsamme

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I personally never really had any problem with the DotF blocking my progress in way that really impacted me. There are usually ways to work around it. But I think the real problem is not that it acts as a roadblock, more that the AI just takes it all the time, even if they´re not planning to honor the call to arms. And like someone said, having to ´fight´ the timurids in an extended war as Majapahit against Brunei just cripples Brunei more as the war goes on, while not doing anything against you or for the timurids themself.
 
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