Defender of the Faith is still ridiculous

[Travis_Bickle]

As one of you already suggested, lock the option becoming DotF behind a minimum of prestige let's say 50.
That would be simple and effective. It prevents awful starts, but doesn't prevent AI from picking it later in the game.
If you still struggle with DotF later, it's just your fault either swapping religion too soon or not waiting for a good moment to attack.

If Defender of the Faith doesn't get taken too early, the player will at least be strong enough that it's more of a nuisance rather than gamebreaking.

I really think it should only come active during the Reformation and apply to Catholics/Protestants, or it should only count if the defending nation is being attacked by Heathens.

 

[Olaf Trygvasson]

My proposed fix is to make DotF only against heathens, make Great Powers unable to call in DotF, fix so that nations prioritize paying debt over taking DotF, add a nerf to DotF in Age of Absolutism and abolish it entirely in Age of Revolutions

 

[FrogCrusher]

In one of my games, Moscovy did take DotF during the 1450s and they were hardly beaten by Ottos when they attacked Byzantium. They never recovered from that war staying in debt spiral and Russia nerger formed. So AI should really add metrics when deciding to take it and responding the CTA.

For the money part, 500 ducats is twice more than an upgrade of a fort. So please PDX, please, made AI build and upgrade capital forts instead of purchasing DotF. It's a really pity to see Paris in 1750 with no fort sieged down in 2 months with 10 cannons.

 

[iClipse]

I do agree that the current rules hamper gameplay somewhat, most noticeable when expanding in Europe with a minor religion. The AI should just be less trigger happy to take the title, especially when in debt.

That said, I do find it very funny how everyone was calling for Paradox to make the game more difficult and now that an extra (albeit unintended) difficulty layer is added, it's also not what they wanted.

 

[Zaddy]

I do agree that the current rules hamper gameplay somewhat, most noticeable when expanding in Europe with a minor religion. The AI should just be less trigger happy to take the title, especially when in debt.

That said, I do find it very funny how everyone was calling for Paradox to make the game more difficult and now that an extra (albeit unintended) difficulty layer is added, it's also not what they wanted.

It's because having France join every war against a Catholic minor is a ridiculous way of "increasing the difficulty." Does it? Yeah, I guess it does. I would've preferred it was done by making the army AI less awful (I've ranted about that before...) instead of saying "lmao you have to fight France to expand or just sit there on speed 5 and wait". It's fake difficulty.

 

[Battlex]

It's because having France join every war against a Catholic minor is a ridiculous way of "increasing the difficulty." Does it? Yeah, I guess it does. I would've preferred it was done by making the army AI less awful (I've ranted about that before...) instead of saying "lmao you have to fight France to expand or just sit there on speed 5 and wait". It's fake difficulty.

France doesn't make you sit on speed 5, it just means you need to be more tactical when declaring wars, and more often joining your enemies wars

In one of my games, Moscovy did take DotF during the 1450s and they were hardly beaten by Ottos when they attacked Byzantium. They never recovered from that war staying in debt spiral and Russia nerger formed. So AI should really add metrics when deciding to take it and responding the CTA.

For the money part, 500 ducats is twice more than an upgrade of a fort. So please PDX, please, made AI build and upgrade capital forts instead of purchasing DotF. It's a really pity to see Paris in 1750 with no fort sieged down in 2 months with 10 cannons.

Sample of 1, but agreed early game AI shouldn't be buying it often unless they've got stacks of ducats from war concessions, although the morale boost and manpower in true faith can help you vs same size rival

 

[Zaddy]

France doesn't make you sit on speed 5, it just means you need to be more tactical when declaring wars, and more often joining your enemies wars

Sample of 1, but agreed early game AI shouldn't be buying it often unless they've got stacks of ducats from war concessions, although the morale boost and manpower in true faith can help you vs same size rival

France had like double my force limit, the only tactical thing about it was occasionally pausing, saying "yep, France will still honor the CTA" and waiting.

 

[love sweden]

France doesn't make you sit on speed 5, it just means you need to be more tactical when declaring wars, and more often joining your enemies wars

Sample of 1, but agreed early game AI shouldn't be buying it often unless they've got stacks of ducats from war concessions, although the morale boost and manpower in true faith can help you vs same size rival

Look I know you wanna seem smart and all but lets settle this like adults. I attached a EU4 save and its your duty to try to expand more then 80 dev before 1480. Developing doesnt count. Vassals you cant reach without military acess doesnt count. France for some reason dying to England or Burgundy doesnt count.

 

[Forderz]

Uhh, I just finished the great Moravia achievement playing on hard as a instantly released (only other thing I did as bohemia was release lustania as well) hussite Moravia and finished up the achievement with a 14 year 100 war score war against the ottomans in 1578.

Yeah, DotF was occasionally annoying. I frequently had to deal with france or poland having it.

Very useful in expanding was allying Saxony and getting pulled into wars, and seperate peacing cobelligerants for land or force converting non cobelligerants to hussite (religious war age ability and the hussite aspect + diplo ideas is 60% warscore reduction!).

Also useful is royal marrying anything with a pulse and is geriatric. I eventually got Saxony and muscovy under PU, with me as the defender in a succession war both times.

I liked allying states that were getting dogpiled and force converting as many princes as possible, to give me more options to expand and attack later.

Once the reformation hits you should have plenty of targets.

 

[Battlex]

Look I know you wanna seem smart and all but lets settle this like adults. I attached a EU4 save and its your duty to try to expand more then 80 dev before 1480. Developing doesnt count. Vassals you cant reach without military acess doesnt count. France for some reason dying to England or Burgundy doesnt count.

When is mil access ever hard to get? Just don't rival them

 

[Zaddy]

Uhh, I just finished the great Moravia achievement playing on hard as a instantly released (only other thing I did as bohemia was release lustania as well) hussite Moravia and finished up the achievement with a 14 year 100 war score war against the ottomans in 1578.

Yeah, DotF was occasionally annoying. I frequently had to deal with france or poland having it.

Very useful in expanding was allying Saxony and getting pulled into wars, and seperate peacing cobelligerants for land or force converting non cobelligerants to hussite (religious war age ability and the hussite aspect + diplo ideas is 60% warscore reduction!).

Also useful is royal marrying anything with a pulse and is geriatric. I eventually got Saxony and muscovy under PU, with me as the defender in a succession war both times.

I liked allying states that were getting dogpiled and force converting as many princes as possible, to give me more options to expand and attack later.

Once the reformation hits you should have plenty of targets.

I must be missing something. Can you take land as a non-warleader from an enemy? Especially in the HRE, shouldn't that give you like one billion AE.

I was playing Hard Montferrat and converted to Protestantism. I was totally encircled by Catholics and had no options for expansion. My way of getting around it was waiting for my ally Austria to claim DOTF and then wait until they called me into wars so I could then declare my own wars which Austria would not join because we were fighting in the same war. Even with that it was a very boring campaign with a lot of speed 5 and hitting the development button...

There was no way to co-belligerent anyone because I couldn't get a CB on a Protestant nation, which means declaring No-CB wars in the HRE... So I was basically screwed either way.

 

[love sweden]

When is mil access ever hard to get? Just don't rival them

Anyone can go no cb some random Indian minor deep in the sub continent. I wouldnt call that a valid or fun way to play the game to bypass a mamluk or france DOTF.

 

[Antarctica7]

Yeah, I'm sorry, I can see how you can say "Just attack the DOTF holder lol" or whatever other solution if you only play majors, but for anyone who starts small it's a major arbitrary roadblock.

I was playing as Montferrat trying to reform Byzantium for funsies. I converted to Protestantism while all of my neighbors remained Catholic. Attacking any of them would've required fighting Austria or France when my force limit was like 20. Trying to No-CB an ally would get a giant coalition on me and get Austria in as the defender (because of No CB on HRE minor draws in Emperor even if you're a member). my only other "option" was Tunis who was DOTF guaranteed by the Mamluks.

Seems like your problem is that you convert to Protestant in situations where you ought not to. I don't see why it should be easy to expand as a minor nation surrounded by countries that hate your religion.

 

[Zaddy]

Seems like your problem is that you convert to Protestant in situations where you ought not to. I don't see why it should be easy to expand as a minor nation surrounded by countries that hate your religion.

Yeah, I guess the lesson is "Play as a Catholic or sit on speed 5". Not my taste but a lot of things in this game aren't to my taste anymore.

 

[love sweden]

Seems like your problem is that you convert to Protestant in situations where you ought not to. I don't see why it should be easy to expand as a minor nation surrounded by countries that hate your religion.

"Seems like your problem is that you played in a way I dont want you to play. I dont see why other ways to play should be allowed to be fun."

 

[Barbu]

Dotf is fine in itself. What's not fine is the AI making it such a high priority. In my re-reconquista game Castille kept taking it but was in so much debt they would always default on the call to arms. And yet take it right after instead of repaying debt.

I think what is mostly highlighted in this thread is AI income/debt management/priorities and willingness to make peace in distant wars.

 

[Zaddy]

For what it's worth I was much more okay with DOTF before because the AI would not take it until the later stages of the game... By that time, even as an OPM you could grow strong enough to have lots of options for how to deal with it.

Now though, the AI will take DOTF by 1450 in many cases. In my game, I had no tools to deal with this, besides converting back to Catholicism. Seems pretty lame to make Reformation religions a false choice for anyone besides European majors...

 

[Oglesby]

I must be missing something. Can you take land as a non-warleader from an enemy? Especially in the HRE, shouldn't that give you like one billion AE.

I was playing Hard Montferrat and converted to Protestantism. I was totally encircled by Catholics and had no options for expansion. My way of getting around it was waiting for my ally Austria to claim DOTF and then wait until they called me into wars so I could then declare my own wars which Austria would not join because we were fighting in the same war. Even with that it was a very boring campaign with a lot of speed 5 and hitting the development button...

There was no way to co-belligerent anyone because I couldn't get a CB on a Protestant nation, which means declaring No-CB wars in the HRE... So I was basically screwed either way.

Did you at least aim to become coastal before converting to protestant? That should have at least increased your potential target list to avoid DotF.

 

[Zaddy]

Did you at least aim to become coastal before converting to protestant? That should have at least increased your potential target list to avoid DotF.

I was coastal. All my potential targets were either DOTF protected by Sunni Mamluks with double my force limit or Catholic France with double my force limit, as far as I could tell.

 

[Antarctica7]

"Seems like your problem is that you played in a way I dont want you to play. I dont see why other ways to play should be allowed to be fun."

Let me rephrase- the OP should have no expectation of an even remotely easy game if he has willingly chosen to play as a tiny minor with a religion that gives him an opinion malus with all of his neighbors, and then decides to attack them.

If he wishes to do so anyway, it is still very possible for a player to potentially pull off with the right alliances, but the point is, that in a game like this, it should be much more difficult to play as much smaller countries, and it often involves very careful diplomatic moves, including what religion one chooses. I don't think it is that too big of a burden to keep your neighbours' religion until powerful enough to stand on their own.

If I thought a country was too boring to play because the start was slow or difficult because of a hostile neighbour, or because I had to make decisions like not instantly converting to Protestant to avoid making them like you less, then I would conclude that that particular country just isn't for me, not blame it on a game mechanic.

If there is a problem with the DoTF system, it exists separately from making OP's minor campaign harder.