Defender of the Faith is still ridiculous

[Manwe_Sulimo]

DotF is not a global restriction either, it only works on the same contintent.

Still I agree to the point that now the AI is too willing to take it, it seems to be willing to take loans for it, which it shouldn't and it regularly takes the DotF back on day 1 day after it lost it. I have noticied it more with the Sunni DotF (= Mamluks) who protect nearly the whole of Africa no matter what.
IMO the AI should be re-configured to put a much lower priority on it, maybe it should be a little bit less willing to answer the CtA (however the bug with the trust penalty should be solved). I think it would also serve a re-balancing such as restricting the re-taking of the DotF when you have lost it (1 year, 5 years, until you get a new ruler?). Giving it a scaling cost might also be interesting: 250/level, so the Catholic / Sunni costs 1250.

 

[Deliberus]

To all the people defending Defender of Faith. Have you ever played a country that isnt a major and not catholic? Many of you didnt seem to with how you talk about it being something wich halts expansion when thats the last thing it does.

Only minor I've seen get away with it is Prussia with their great military ideas, nobody else is really able to get away with it...

 

[Battlex]

To all the people defending Defender of Faith. Have you ever played a country that isnt a major and not catholic? Many of you didnt seem to with how you talk about it being something wich halts expansion when thats the last thing it does.

Yes, but I want a more stagnant Europe, HRE consolidation from a minor to a medium to be harder, and several other things which Zaddy is likely against

 

[scriptkiddy]

Converting to Protestantism now means fighting one of France, Austria or Spain for each and every single war you fight against a Catholic.

The actual gameplay affect of DOTF is that I sit on speed 5 and look at my phone and occasionally check to see if France will still honor the CTA and develop my land when I hit my mana cap.

Don’t be scared, wait for them to engage in some war; Spain and France very often get distracted with colonialand Austria with intra HRE wars, so even if they honour the CTA they will keep on minding their wars.

 

[Travis_Bickle]

@Zaddy

Try playing an Orthodox country and continually dealing with Defender of the Faith. Try attacking Albania as Serbia and having to fight one of Castile, France, England or Poland. It's an absolute killer and so broken I'd consider it a bug.

 

[Junuxx]

I think claiming DotF just needs a minimum prestige, say 75, so that the AI can't constantly claim and reclaim it.

 

[Zaddy]

Yes, but I want a more stagnant Europe, HRE consolidation from a minor to a medium to be harder, and several other things which Zaddy is likely against

I'm not per se opposed to this, but the issue is that there's just nothing to do besides sit at speed 5, put your armies on Drill and dev when I hit the mana cap. I think this is boring. Europe being more stagnant would be okay if there was other stuff to do, but that's just not what EU4 is about...

In addition, just making it so "France joins every war against any Catholic nation" seems like a really really lame way to limit expansion... It's not historical or fun imo.

At the very least, being able to instantly reclaim DOTF for a mere 500 gold seems pretty silly...

 

[Kalderus]

I'm surprised no one here is talking about why Paradox still hard locks DOTF to only Christian and Islamic faiths. Sure, some of the eastern faiths, like Confucianism/Chinese folk-religion didn't historically practice heavy proselytization or militarily defending their faith, but it would be nice to at least have the option to use the mechanic even just for balance reasons. The extra 5% morale provided by DOTF can turn around decisive battles in grueling wars, and the inadvertent nerfing of ROTW faiths is really unnecessary.

For fantasy/alt-history situations, why shouldn't a resurgent Zoroastrian Persia, a Jewish Ethiopia, a Totemist Pan-North American Native Empire, or a heavily militarized Buddhist Khmer invading the Middle East/Europe be unable to declare itself the defender of its state-sponsored faith, the way Christian and Islamic faiths can?

If the issue is AI abuse, just make it a player only decision (AI = no). Perhaps certain conditions could be added to require taking decisions with diplomatic consequences, or holding certain provinces deemed holy for your faith before a ROTW faith could claim DOTF, but come on man, give us the option to do this.

Hasn't Paradox learned from CK2's infamous "Will not marry an infidel" malus, that no one likes hard locks/restrictions? Soft locks with a challenge are almost always preferred to allow more options/playstyles.

 

[Zaddy]

and the inadvertent nerfing of ROTW faiths is really unnecessary.

I agree, but I don't feel that it's inadvertent... It's because it's "not historical". But attacking Catholic Albania as Orthodox Serbia bringing in France because reasons is perfectly fine, of course...

 

[Kalderus]

I agree, but I don't feel that it's inadvertent... It's because it's "not historical". But attacking Catholic Albania as Orthodox Serbia bringing in France because reasons is perfectly fine, of course...

What? You didn't study the Great Franco-Serb war of 1537 in school (wink)?

 

[Harczi]

 

[Zaddy]

View attachment 697824

lmfaooo thank you for stating my compliant in much fewer words

 

[Sidolowka]

I mean, have any of you tried playing Mzab, having to just sit there doing nothing for 20 fucking years straight because the Mamluks took DoTF 5 years into the game?

What are you supposed to do, no-CB Castille? With your non-existant coastline and sand-based economy?

Or how about when you're trying to play Manipur but end up sitting there doing nothing because the Timurids are willing to cross half the entire continent to defend Bengal?

Or playing Herzegowina while being unable to expand in any direction because England took DoTF? What are you gonta do, solo the Ottomans? Fat fucking chance.

The only thing DoTF does is cripple religiously isolated minors for ridiculous reasons. Do you really think the Timurids would care if Kutai invaded Brunei? Or did England, the supposed historical Defender of the Faith mind you, care when Austria got invaded by the Ottomans?

You know what's even more hilarious? The Mamluks defending Mali, which they DO NOT KNOW EXISTS, from Dahomey.

'My Sultan, where are we headed to on this campaign?'

'4500 kilometres across the Sahara to defend a country we've never bloody heard about'

'Aye that seems about right'

 

[Zaddy]

Yeah, I'm sorry, I can see how you can say "Just attack the DOTF holder lol" or whatever other solution if you only play majors, but for anyone who starts small it's a major arbitrary roadblock.

I was playing as Montferrat trying to reform Byzantium for funsies. I converted to Protestantism while all of my neighbors remained Catholic. Attacking any of them would've required fighting Austria or France when my force limit was like 20. Trying to No-CB an ally would get a giant coalition on me and get Austria in as the defender (because of No CB on HRE minor draws in Emperor even if you're a member). my only other "option" was Tunis who was DOTF guaranteed by the Mamluks.

 

[MatthewP]

I agree with the premise. I actually noticed it the most in a recent colonization game as Ireland. I just got to a point where I was going "Well, I guess I'm not attacking Kilwa or Mali anytime soon" because it's just not worth it to deal with 100k Mamluks in 1530. It doesn't make a ton of sense.

Here's a first draft of a solution:

1) DOTF still gets a CTA, and is not limited by continent. But it is much more likely to reject it based on distance/opinion of defender.
2) Rejecting does not automatically lose them DOTF, instead it costs prestige (varying inversely by distance? It would be better but maybe it's too complicated)
2a) Maybe there's an option via event to immediately recoup some of the lost prestige by sending money + manpower instead?
2b) Maybe there is an option to abandon DoTF after a rejected call for a small additional prestige cost. The AI will do this if it is in trouble e.g. bad wars, no manpower, loans, etc.
3) Below a certain prestige threshold, DOTF is lost, possibly after a grace period like great power status. It also can't be claimed below this level, obviously.

So DOTF is still a thing, but the AI will follow a more natural logic of when to honor it and will not be able to instantly reclaim it when lost. In addition to these changes the AI should stop getting itself into debt to claim the title.

 

[Harczi]

I came back to this game after a looonger while. I went for Byzantium->Roman Empire campaign to get some skill back.

The year is 1525. Poland is the DOTF and its rivals are: Me, Muscovy and England. England is so far away it might as well not exist for the purpose of this rant.

This means that I can't just get it to lose DOTF.

Then you might say "Okay then, you can go for the Muslims" except I really can't because the Mamluks are the DOTF and their rivals are, wait for it..

...Me, QQ (Shia) and England.

This means, once again, that I can't just get them to lose DOTF.

My only options are:

A) Scrapping the barrel by trying to attack QQ (Which I will win but it will be low gain high input)

B) Going for Poland (Which while winnable, it doesn't solve DOTF issues)

In case option B would succeed there's nothing to stop DOTF from being quickly re-purchased (Since AI has very weird priorities when it comes to the way it handles money) or ping-ponging between France and Poland.


I do kinda feel like people most people in support of the current situation just play a medium-major sized catholic nation and by the time of encountering a DOTF of another religion they are just a blob wihch can steamroll over anything they want to.

 

[MatthewP]

I came back to this game after a looonger while. I went for Byzantium->Roman Empire campaign to get some skill back.

The year is 1525. Poland is the DOTF and its rivals are: Me, Muscovy and England. England is so far away it might as well not exist for the purpose of this rant.

This means that I can't just get it to lose DOTF.

Then you might say "Okay then, you can go for the Muslims" except I really can't because the Mamluks are the DOTF and their rivals are, wait for it..

...Me, QQ (Shia) and England.

This means, once again, that I can't just get them to lose DOTF.

My only options are:

A) Scrapping the barrel by trying to attack QQ (Which I will win but it will be low gain high input)

B) Going for Poland (Which while winnable, it doesn't solve DOTF issues)

In case option B would succeed there's nothing to stop DOTF from being quickly re-purchased (Since AI has very weird priorities when it comes to the way it handles money) or ping-ponging between France and Poland.


I do kinda feel like people most people in support of the current situation just play a medium-major sized catholic nation and by the time of encountering a DOTF of another religion they are just a blob wihch can steamroll over anything they want to.

Yeah. I think it can be a mixed bag. I was playing a Florence game recently where I had a lot of trouble with a strong Venice/Genoa. At one point Commonwealth got DoTF, and it limited my options. But it was late enough in, and I was strong enough by that time, that it became a fun challenge to figure out how to get around it. But there are certainly times where it's just annoying, and even when it's fun it often makes no sense logically.

 

[filcat]

playing Mzab, having to just sit there doing nothing for 20 fucking years straight because the Mamluks took DoTF 5 years into the game?

What are you supposed to do, no-CB Castille? With your non-existant coastline and sand-based economy?

Speaking about Mzab as an example, and saying it has an economy... errr... to put it kindly, it is extraordinarily generous

 

[Battlex]

Yeah. I think it can be a mixed bag. I was playing a Florence game recently where I had a lot of trouble with a strong Venice/Genoa. At one point Commonwealth got DoTF, and it limited my options. But it was late enough in, and I was strong enough by that time, that it became a fun challenge to figure out how to get around it. But there are certainly times where it's just annoying, and even when it's fun it often makes no sense logically.

You get papal influence in ideas why drop Catholicism?

Yeah, I'm sorry, I can see how you can say "Just attack the DOTF holder lol" or whatever other solution if you only play majors, but for anyone who starts small it's a major arbitrary roadblock.

I was playing as Montferrat trying to reform Byzantium for funsies. I converted to Protestantism while all of my neighbors remained Catholic. Attacking any of them would've required fighting Austria or France when my force limit was like 20. Trying to No-CB an ally would get a giant coalition on me and get Austria in as the defender (because of No CB on HRE minor draws in Emperor even if you're a member). my only other "option" was Tunis who was DOTF guaranteed by the Mamluks.

Ally someone who's losing a defensive war, vsssalising byz is also how you overcome Ottos as Venice, so hardly an unheard of strat. Ryuku world conquest has an achievement where you would need to similarly jump into wars

 

[Zaddy]

Speaking about Mzab as an example, and saying it has an economy... errr... to put it kindly, it is extraordinarily generous

Sandcastles made of Mozabite sand commanded high prices in Genoa, I'll have you know!!