Defeat After Deceit

[unmerged(18425)]

Couple of points to make, firstly what leader set are we using, it looks like vanilla with a few agceep changes though no real method to what has been changed...

And secondly should the first round of gold bankruptcies be editted?

It are all AGCEEP leaders, but because the Netherlands aren't present in the scenario start, they get leaders from the standard leader file (ie, the vanilla one).
The same is true for Prussia when it forms.

It's pretty simple to replace them by the AGCEEP ones.

 

[unmerged(18425)]

Someone agreed to sub Mulliman - and only Mulliman. But then just because there was a country with bigger importance, that same sub, cant remember who, had to move - thanks to the GMs.

What if the sub himself says he wants to play another country? IIRC that was the case with Mullimans sub as well, because I cannot imagine the GMs replaced a sub against his will.
In this case, the whole group, including two GMs, voted for it. No one was against it. That settles it. (And I agree it's rotten for ear it happened, but it can and should happen to anyone if the situation arises).

Somehow the community slowly adopted the mindset that players who miss a session have special rights that secure the prosperity of their nation, while the opposite should be true.
The protection of players that don't play is extra-ordinary high. We already moved from simply letting player nations being AI-ed to them being ghosted. Now they get edits done if they miss events as a ghost (despite them being completely safe during ghosting time), they get tech compensation when being a ghost, dp clicks and so on. The next step we're seeing is moving towards edit compensations if you get 'wrongly' subbed.

If you miss a session, you risk being screwed. You cannot be in complete control of things that happen to your country if you don't play yourself. It's ultimately the player group that make decisions like this when problems arise.
An example is John's sub Absolut getting turbo-annexed because he made a small mistake. John could then have rightly argued that he himself, being the good player he is, never would get turbo-ed. And then demand compensation.

Where does it stop then?

 

[Ampoliros]

And secondly should the first round of gold bankruptcies be editted?

This indeed will be done in this week´s edits.

All will receive 1 percent inflation for every 3 gold provinces owned.

 

[Ampoliros]

Ampo, can you fix the names of the players in the stats?

Fixed.

 

[Tonioz]

About Poland's centralization and the event, as much as I hate to do anything that will help Poland, assuming the +1 central edit that was supposed to be done would have allowed it to avoid the disastrous event, all the major effects of that event should be reversed- DPs, money, maybe some more money for interests on loans.

Well, i may say that last loans were 27,29,31% interests rate. You can load the save, when i started to sub and check. I paid 24 per month for loans of 60 income.

 

[EarendilHE]

Ah... I remember similar shit hapening in Storm over Europe where Daniel heavily bitched at the way subing was being conducted. Someone agreed to sub Mulliman - and only Mulliman. But then just because there was a country with bigger importance, that same sub, cant remember who, had to move - thanks to the GMs. Obviously Daniel was so indignated that he even left the game and only came back after that same sub, subbed Mulliman and no one else. While i do not believe the means justify the end, and that Daniel reacted somewhat harshly, it is obvious that he was right.

If i, manage to get a sub of good competence, and then end getting one of lesser competence thanks to someone incompetence, i would get seriously annoyed, the more so if my nation got hurt. Virtually, Ear, who managed to get a sub, got hurt in all of this, while HAL, who, either for laziness, or due to his busy life (or to any other unexpectable event), didnt even get a sub, got seriously rewarded. Speak about fairness!

Before going ahead with such actions, people should think of the situation as if it was hapening to them. Would, frankly speaking, ANY of you like the situation if you were Ear? The answer is rather clear.

Of course, putting Tonio in Austria as it should have been would mean Poland would most probably end ghosted, but that would have been more correct, and no one other then HAL would be held responsible for such, for, after all, he was unable to get someone to sub him. If ghosting was your problem, then you could have got Seen to do the ghosting.

I love you!

So may ask again for a small compensation of 1,5 deflation?

 

[admiral drake]

What if the sub himself says he wants to play another country? IIRC that was the case with Mullimans sub as well, because I cannot imagine the GMs replaced a sub against his will.
In this case, the whole group, including two GMs, voted for it. No one was against it. That settles it. (And I agree it's rotten for ear it happened, but it can and should happen to anyone if the situation arises).

Somehow the community slowly adopted the mindset that players who miss a session have special rights that secure the prosperity of their nation, while the opposite should be true.
The protection of players that don't play is extra-ordinary high. We already moved from simply letting player nations being AI-ed to them being ghosted. Now they get edits done if they miss events as a ghost (despite them being completely safe during ghosting time), they get tech compensation when being a ghost, dp clicks and so on. The next step we're seeing is moving towards edit compensations if you get 'wrongly' subbed.

If you miss a session, you risk being screwed. You cannot be in complete control of things that happen to your country if you don't play yourself. It's ultimately the player group that make decisions like this when problems arise.
An example is John's sub Absolut getting turbo-annexed because he made a small mistake. John could then have rightly argued that he himself, being the good player he is, never would get turbo-ed. And then demand compensation.

Where does it stop then?

i agree with fal on this matter

and no ear you should not get -1.5inflation for seen subbing you, seen is stil a capable player asfar as i know and
not some random noob we picked up from vnet and he did not ruine austria in any way xept loose a war

if ear looses his 1.5inflation he should loose his 4refinerys that where build during the session

and infact since we had to ghost austria at start due tonio not showing up you should get a wookie(+0.5inflation)

 

[EarendilHE]

i agree with fal on this matter

and no ear you should not get -1.5inflation for seen subbing you, seen is stil a capable player asfar as i know and
not some random noob we picked up from vnet and he did not ruine austria in any way xept loose a war

if ear looses his 1.5inflation he should loose his 4refinerys that where build during the session

and infact since we had to ghost austria at start due tonio not showing up you should get a wookie(+0.5inflation)

i know! i forgot this issue already, but then ego made me believe in my rights not to accept it..let it drop now!

 

[HALNY (HAL)]

About Poland's centralization and the event, as much as I hate to do anything that will help Poland, assuming the +1 central edit that was supposed to be done would have allowed it to avoid the disastrous event, all the major effects of that event should be reversed- DPs, money, maybe some more money for interests on loans.

True words spoken Thank you John.

I knew my absence will make a lot of troubles for Poland, but I did not expect it will have so many side effects in other countries. I'm sorry for that, but please do not blame me (like Burning did ) for situation I had no control of. You all were there, decided who will sub what and I don't see anything wrong with this. From what I read I can only tell, that if Seen did not want to play Poland and Tonio was late it was logical to switch them as subs.

 

[HALNY (HAL)]

I compared 1567, 1593 saves and event changes and I think this is what will be fair to edit:

1. Centralization to 7 (in 1567 it should be 6, but was 5 due to Hamachi bug, plus I wanted to make one slider move in 1569)

2. Aristocracy will have to remain 10 it seems. Event gave me +3 but it was 10 before and I doubt Tonio moved this sliders. Did you Tonio?

3. Quality to 7 (it was 7 in 1567, now it is 10, event was +3).

4. Land back to 5 of course.

5. 1200 to treasury (event toke -1200 gold).

6. Henrykanian Articles give +2 stab, but I don't know who to calculate this change now, after all stability was changing a lot of times during past 25 years.

7. What about -20 manpower due to event? It changed MP only temporary or it affected base MP?

8. Tonio had to mint to pay loans, so I think some -2% inflation will be nice.

9. John mention something about money for loan interests, but if Poland get -inflation I don't find that necessary.

10. All loans edit out.

 

[Aladar]

Why should Poland get all these edits?

 

[admiral drake]

Why should Poland get all these edits?

cause he got a really nasty event due somebody forgetting to edit +1centra

 

[admiral drake]

well a official statement from the ottoman empire

the ottoman empire will reach trade 4 within 2years after the session starts and has desided to sell tradepositions within the cots controlled by the empire

all nations that do not pay will be embargod permanently
all ai nations that annoy people that do buy spots will be embargod to

we have 3spots in the cots
2spots for 5merchants in all cots of the empire
1spot for monopolizing all cots in the empire



russia is welcome to continiu to monopolise astrakan if he agrees to either not trade in the rest or pay like the rest to trade in the other cots
if kj agrees to either this means that nobody else can monopolise astrakan

venice and austria will be embargod automaticle, there is no discussion about this as they are excluded

offers will have to be send by pm
and the 3highest bids get the rights, highests get right to mono
all bids have to be send before monday


if not enough bids come in i will just embargo all, got enough ai to keep cots alive anyway

 

[EarendilHE]

well a official statement from the ottoman empire

the ottoman empire will reach trade 4 within 2years after the session starts and has desided to sell tradepositions within the cots controlled by the empire

all nations that do not pay will be embargod permanently
all ai nations that annoy people that do buy spots will be embargod to

we have 4spots in the cots
2spots for 5merchants in all cots of the empire
1spot for monopolizing all cots in the empire
and 1 spot that can have 4spots


russia is welcome to continiu to monopolise astrakan if he agrees to either not trade in the rest or pay like the rest to trade in the other cots
if kj agrees to either this means that nobody else can monopolise astrakan

venice and austria will be embargod automaticle, there is no discussion about this as they are excluded

offers will have to be send by pm
and the 4highest bids get the rights, highests get right to mono lowest 4
all bids have to be send before monday
and the minimum is 200g a year(this has to be payed every 1, 5 or 10years)

if not enough bids come in i will just embargo all, got enough ai to keep cots alive anyway

 

[admiral drake]

updated

 

[admiral drake]

after consideration i updated again

we will only sell 3spots instead of 4
1spot that can monopolize all 6cots of the empire(soon to be more)
2spots that can put 5in the cots of the empire

the spot with 4merchants will be reserved

 

[BurningEGO]

I'm sorry for that, but please do not blame me (like Burning did )

HAL, you misunderstood me. I am not blaming you. You were not even in game. You were not responsible for the sub switch between Austria-Poland. You did not even expect to get a sub from what i understood! You, like Ear, are the least to be acused of something since you werent even in game.

Of course if you had gotten a sub there would have been no problem and everyone would be happy, but if Hitler's mother had died before getting pregnant, world war 2 wouldnt have hapened either, and we cant really put the blame of world war 2 hapening on hitler's mother, can we? Hope you understood what i meant.

blah blah polish edits blah blah

Now now - that is another awesome thing... Did, by any chance, Tonio DOW Russia after having these events (in 1574)? You know, 3 qual meant +0.15 morale and +1 fire phase, plus the 2 land, even if temporarily gave a huge boost.

An example is John's sub Absolut getting turbo-annexed because he made a small mistake. John could then have rightly argued that he himself, being the good player he is, never would get turbo-ed. And then demand compensation.

I dont know if you are comparing wine with water, as it seems, but nevertheless, did John apoint Absolut as sub? If he did, then it is only his fault for having his country semi-ruined or hurt.

If he didnt apoint absolut as sub, but didnt say anything else apart from possibly stating he could not play that session, and maybe that he didnt bother being subbed by anyone, he is also to be blamed.

If he said he did not want to be subbed, and only ghosted, but still got subbed, then he is, obviously a victim and should demand compensation. But only in this case.

The question, does not lie on the skills of the player. The question lies in having a diferent sub then the one you got for yourself - specially if he is not as competent as the one you got for yourself.

not some random noob we picked up from vnet and he did not ruine austria in any way xept loose a war

Dear drake, we all know that comparing Seen with Tonio is like comparing Ghandi with Sadam... With the current size of the EU2 MP comunity, Tonio must be the 1st, or 2nd, best player of all.

If you miss a session, you risk being screwed. You cannot be in complete control of things that happen to your country if you don't play yourself. It's ultimately the player group that make decisions like this when problems arise.

Wait a second... So now, you put the blame on Ear, who arranged a sub for himself, for having his nation somewhat "screwed" because the "player group" decided such? What kind of "logic" is this? It just looks like another theory of the potato...

 

[admiral drake]

ego bugger off we don't wan't you starting another discussion over a minor thing

and fal is right anyway
tonio would have been the sub of austria if seen stayed for poland
but since seen wanted to leave poland ghost and tonio offert to play poland
it was the obvious choise to switch arround so both got a sub, daniel a could complain all he wanted, didn't make him right last time and doesn't make you right this time

you don't ghost a country when you got 2subs with 1of them willing to play the otherwise ghosted country
and seen may not be asgood as tonio, your right about that but seen is stil capable

and again austria didn't loose the war, venice did
seen just got caught by the river and i was waiting for him on the other side with more troops and cav then the venice+austrian army combined

and i never got below 250mp or so in the war, while seen mensioned he got to 0

 

[BurningEGO]

and i never got below 250mp or so in the war, while seen mensioned he got to 0

You see, you give me reason indirectly. To prepare properly for an offensive against such behemoths like the OE, one has to go way over the limit, and wait for his MP pool to replenish. You will, hardly, deplete your manpower pool if you plan things right.

Hell, even on POD, when i was ganged by 4 nations, i never depleted my manpower pool. And i had plenty of cash to do so if i wished.

 

[admiral drake]

You see, you give me reason indirectly. To prepare properly for an offensive against such behemoths like the OE, one has to go way over the limit, and wait for his MP pool to replenish. You will, hardly, deplete your manpower pool if you plan things right.

Hell, even on POD, when i was ganged by 4 nations, i never depleted my manpower pool. And i had plenty of cash to do so if i wished.

they had no more time to do that tho, a 5years later i would have had a 800-1000ships and lt 18

and i was busy with india when they dowed so just spend a fair amount of troops vassaling mughals and going deep in india
if they waited 5years my army would have been back at 400k to