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High_King

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First off I'm obviously aware that Hearts of Iron isn't setting out to simulate governing a nation, much less is it trying to simulate global economics and trade - everything in the game is slanted towards the inevitable world war and what economic and industrial policy exists is purely there to simulate the need during the war for powers to out-produce each other and ship in resources at a fast enough clip to pull that off.

This wasn't an issue, either, until I started playing online with a friend recently and we really started to consider the practical implications of the trade mechanics. Even if we were ideologically opposed in-game, so long as we weren't at war we had a standing agreement that if the other player produced a resource we need we'd buy from them, to give them all too crucial civilian factories.

This raises a question: Why can we manually shop for producers to import from, but we can't do the same for possible export destinations? Correct me if I'm wrong, but the AI appears to simply import from the first nation on the resource list (always the one, of course, producing the most of that resource), and means that even if you're a slightly smaller country with a surfeit of, say, Steel, you'll basically never be able to trade it until all other exporters are tapped out.

Maybe I'm wrong about all this - maybe there's a mechanic I'm overlooking and I'm about to be corrected and if so, good. But, it seems to me that there should be a way to actively seek trading partners to export to, and there should be a way to lobby to have your exports win out over another (I know there's a mechanic already that would govern this, I think it's called trade power or something?).

This way even if you're not playing the United States with Free Trade laws in place you can still try to export what you do have to shore up some nice factory space. I think it'd make the game a little more immersive as well, so that running the economy feels like you're actually doing something and not simply letting your exports go on autopilot.

With that said I feel there should also be a way to embargo countries without having to wait for specific and often unique national focuses (in fact thinking about it I feel as if the United States might just be the only country that has any sort of options when it comes to embargoes; I think the UK gets to do it to, but otherwise that's it as far as governing who your resources ship to goes). There needs to be some sort of balancing mechanic, of course, otherwise American players could simply cut off all Japan's oil from 1936 and watch them try to piece it together from elsewhere (Even though, admittedly, Japan can just as easily do business with Venezuela without batting an eyelid, at least until the US Navy shuts down the Panama Canal to Japanese shipping when war breaks out).

Of course I might just be overlooking something. I already mentioned I'm aware trade power exists even if I'm not sure what it does. My assumption is that if a country is tapped out of resources and two countries are competing for the last few units, the country with the larger trade power gets the export agreement. If there is another way trade power can be used so players can have more of a say in where our exports go, then I don't know it.
 

hkrommel

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And all that doesn't even cover the magically disappearing resources which are only put to use if they're consumed by your factories or traded away. Otherwise they are promptly dumped into the void as it were.

TL;DR bring back stockpiles!
 

C-Breeze

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So if I read you right, you seem to be advocating for a trade system that doesn't feel like autopilot, with the ability to embargo certain nations, and actual stockpiles. Revolutionary mechanics. If only something like this was possible. ;)
 

bitmode

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the AI appears to simply import from the first nation on the resource list
I'm pretty sure they also consider at least distance.

we can't do the same for possible export destinations
When you are on Export Focus or Free Trade how could the government control which country is buying some resources?
Maybe it could be argued that on Closed Economy and Limited Exports there should still be a way to make specific deals with certain countries. But that might mess up the balancing of economic policies.

any sort of options when it comes to embargoes
Apart from the mentioned USA and UK, which other trade relations need an embargo option (from a historical or game balance perspective)?
 

rust95

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I'm pretty sure they also consider at least distance.


When you are on Export Focus or Free Trade how could the government control which country is buying some resources?
Maybe it could be argued that on Closed Economy and Limited Exports there should still be a way to make specific deals with certain countries. But that might mess up the balancing of economic policies.


Apart from the mentioned USA and UK, which other trade relations need an embargo option (from a historical or game balance perspective)?

All allied nations should be able to be able to embargo and it should be a function of generated WT. This would add an interesting aspect to the game, forcing the Axis into war with certain allied countries (as happened with Japan in real life) or making life a bit more difficult for expansionist fascist minors.
 

Sloeberjong

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And all that doesn't even cover the magically disappearing resources which are only put to use if they're consumed by your factories or traded away. Otherwise they are promptly dumped into the void as it were.

TL;DR bring back stockpiles!

No, this is not the solution. It's been made explicitly clear that stockpiles have been removed for gameplay purposes. They were way too powerful in HoI3. You just filled them up to the max and the war would be smooth sailing. Without stockpiles you'll have no use for the power of hindsight.

However, I do think some form of stockpiling can have its place in HoI4. On the other hand, it's simulated in the way that you can still produce stuff (albeit slower) without all the necessary resources. The trade system right now is rather simple, but it works. I think it'll be an expansion at some point to make things more complicated for the people craving a bit more depth. Embargo's would be nice to have though.

So yeah, trade and resources can and should be expanded upon, but I don't think stockpiles are the solution. Also I think other parts of the game have to be prioritized over trade. Something that's kind of related would be an army upkeep or something.
 

Gyrvendal

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All allied nations should be able to be able to embargo and it should be a function of generated WT. This would add an interesting aspect to the game, forcing the Axis into war with certain allied countries (as happened with Japan in real life) or making life a bit more difficult for expansionist fascist minors.

This already happens to some extent although you have no control over it. Whenever a country generates WT it gets a debuff to relations with all democracies. This will lower the amount of resources you can buy from them until you eventually can't buy anything at all.
 

Gwydion5

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but the AI appears to simply import from the first nation on the resource list (always the one, of course, producing the most of that resource), and means that even if you're a slightly smaller country with a surfeit of, say, Steel, you'll basically never be able to trade it until all other exporters are tapped out.

That does not match my experience. Try watching British Malaysia's oil resources on the world market. They are at the top and yet other nations are being imported from for oil.

In terms of economics and such I'm rather neutral and ignorant to the economics of WW2 to argue why/if shipping oil from British Malaysia to a nation on the other side of the world was more or less efficient or costly. I tend to think that while global trade is starting to be front and center, there is still efficiency gains and cost reduction using regional partners over global partners to some degree.
 

GeneralZorro

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No, this is not the solution. It's been made explicitly clear that stockpiles have been removed for gameplay purposes. They were way too powerful in HoI3. You just filled them up to the max and the war would be smooth sailing. Without stockpiles you'll have no use for the power of hindsight.

However, I do think some form of stockpiling can have its place in HoI4. On the other hand, it's simulated in the way that you can still produce stuff (albeit slower) without all the necessary resources. The trade system right now is rather simple, but it works. I think it'll be an expansion at some point to make things more complicated for the people craving a bit more depth. Embargo's would be nice to have though.

So yeah, trade and resources can and should be expanded upon, but I don't think stockpiles are the solution. Also I think other parts of the game have to be prioritized over trade. Something that's kind of related would be an army upkeep or something.

I disagree. The problem with HOI3 was that stockpiles were not balanced, every single country could stockpile the same amount independently of their total IC or infrastructure level. Moreover, once at war, when capturing an enemy capital city, you would automatically get all their stockpiled resources, which meant that by declaring on minor nations you could steal their usually very high stockpiles and keep the war going.
I would like to see at least stockpiles of fuel and maybe ammunition, but with a limit that is tied to IC or infrastructure level. Maybe even having a new building type which would allow to stockpile and could be also bombed and captured with a loss. This way you can more accurately represent the permanent importance of fuel and operational planning needed when knowing you will start a war, as was the historical case with Germany.

Do not get me wrong, I appreciate the effort that the devs have put into reducing the micro needed for certain things, but I do think that the current resource representation (Oil/fuel I am particularly talking about you) is way too simplified.

Edit: Added a historical reference.
 
Last edited:

cellinis

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Maybe even having a new building type which would allow to stockpile and could be also bombed and captured with a loss. This way you can more accurately represent the permanent importance of fuel and operational planning needed when knowing you will start a war, as was the historical case with Germany.
It would be very close to reality as well. Plus actually make supply important/controllable, especially if developers go for a deep system.
 

CharlieFox

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My whishlist for Hoi IV Economy/Trade would be:
-Option to embargo nations (gated behind WT or similar)
-Option to automatically increase or decrease the amount of resources imported based on demand. Deciding who to buy a resource from is a meaningful choice (that should be left to the player) but having to open the trade menu and readjust the amount imported every time the demand for such resource changes is a chore that could easily be automated.
-That faction members should be able to import any resources you are not using even if you are closed economy. That would allow to enact restrictive trade laws without screwing your allies
-That Oil and Rubber produced by synthetic refineries would not subject to trade laws. That is to say that regardless of the trade law you get all the oil rubber produced by the refineries.
 

Novat

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Hoi4 facilitates the second world war, not the economics surrounding it. Unlike Victoria 2 which facilitates the colonization era, and very much focused on economy.

With that said, add the following:
- The ability to trade more than 1 type of resource for 1 factory. Say you're a tiny minor nation and want to build trucks, support equipment and artillery. You only produce the steel. Currently you need to trade 4 factories to get the oil, rubber, aluminium and tungsten. Make it so that you can send 1 factory to the UK for example, and get 1 oil, 1 aluminium, 1 rubber and 5 tungsten.

- The stockpiling of resources. Base value based on the VPs your nation has, then you can modify it with research and buildings.

- Have equipment require resources with values less than 1. Currently, the only serious rubber expenditure is airplanes, while tanks and ships require no rubber at all. Change it so that equipment need a greater variety of resources in order to maintain efficient production. Naturally, basic infantry equipment for example would still only require steel. But modern tanks for example should require all 6 resources to produce. Mostly steel and chromium, a decent amount of tungsten and oil and a lower amount of aluminium and rubber.

If you expand the required resources. You can also expand the variety screen, to allow you to reduce cost or entirely remove one resource at the cost of equipment quality. And maybe increase the use of other resources to compensate.
 

hkrommel

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They were way too powerful in HoI3. You just filled them up to the max and the war would be smooth sailing. Without stockpiles you'll have no use for the power of hindsight.

What you call hindsight I call planning. Sure the system wasn't perfect in HoI3 but that doesn't mean we need to ditch the system for the horrendous misrepresentation of how resource management works in this game. Not having fuel or supplies completely unbalances the war in the Pacific, particularly for the Japanese, and changed the balance of Europe as well. Stockpiles of resources and the ability to not completely burn through every ounce of iron your country produces in a given day are integral to any semi-realistic depiction of the war, since resource stockpiling and storage was a major issue.
 

Jamey

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I have a sense of deja vu about this conversation. ;)

In no particular order:

  • Resource stockpiles are out because they made resources meaningless in HOI3.
  • Embargoes are out because hindsight allows everyone to avoid trading with their future enemies.
  • Resources consumption is abstracted into building equipment. This is why oil is consumed to build a tank, for example. Many people don't like this abstraction, but it doesn't bother me a lot. It is a much less ideal abstraction for naval units where equipment isn't consumed by combat.
 

hkrommel

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Resource stockpiles are out because they made resources meaningless in HOI3.

Fix the system rather than removing it entirely. Flawed as it was, it was still more realistic than fleets and armored divisions running on magic without regard for strategic reserves.

Embargoes are out because hindsight allows everyone to avoid trading with their future enemies.

This is why a deeper political and economic game is needed. If you start embargoing people prematurely that should set off a trade war that kills the global economy and would have massive political implications in the wake of the Great Depression. Adding this depth could have good implications for recreating the historical situations in situations like France's high command problems, and could similarly be a reason for players to keep building battleships when in hindsight everyone knows carriers are the way to go.

Resources consumption is abstracted into building equipment. This is why oil is consumed to build a tank, for example. Many people don't like this abstraction, but it doesn't bother me a lot. It is a much less ideal abstraction for naval units where equipment isn't consumed by combat.

The problem is that it's a flat amount. Say I build a particular Panzer II in 1938 using X amount of oil. If that Panzer II is damaged irreparably during a training exercise one week later, it consumes X oil. If it's somehow killed in a Polish cavalry charge in 1939, it consumes X oil. If it get sunk on a transport ship to North Africa in 1940, it consumes X oil. If it gets blown up on the Eastern Front in 1943, it consumes X oil. If for some reason I'm still using this Panzer II in 1947 and am invading the US where it overheats in the Mojave and is abandoned, it uses X oil. How is that remotely realistic?

It also ahistorically skews equipment construction. Historically, the Germans altered their formation composition to deal with ongoing fuel issues. They had to plan ahead with how much fuel their forces would consume when building them, and would alter how much motorized equipment was actually deployed based on fuel consumption projections. De-motorizing the army was a serious proposal after Barbarossa. In-game you build equipment at whatever pace you please when you have positive income, and since the problem I went over in the above paragraph is present, you build without regard to supply consumption over time. It doesn't matter that your forces would realistically run out of fuel halfway to Minsk because you min-maxed and are running dozens of 40-width Panther divisions in 1940 (not sure if this is still possible in the latest patch), because you paid the flat rate and your divisions will now run forever.
 
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Secret Master

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This is why a deeper political and economic game is needed. If you start embargoing people prematurely that should set off a trade war that kills the global economy

But you still screw the Axis, so in war game about WWII, you still win.

"Well, we threw the global economy into a second Depression, Doctor Who."

"Yes, but now Hitler, Tojo, Mussolini, and the Daleks won't be able to even do half as much as they did during the real WWII."

"Hmm, given the damage to Europe's industries in the historical timeline, I think it's a wash."

"Yep. Back to Galifrey for me. Toodles!"
 

hkrommel

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But you still screw the Axis, so in war game about WWII, you still win.

"Well, we threw the global economy into a second Depression, Doctor Who."

"Yes, but now Hitler, Tojo, Mussolini, and the Daleks won't be able to even do half as much as they did during the real WWII."

"Hmm, given the damage to Europe's industries in the historical timeline, I think it's a wash."

"Yep. Back to Galifrey for me. Toodles!"

That assumes that "on the bubble" allies like France stay democratic under those circumstances though. Either way that's where balancing would come in. Nobody is saying it needs to be totally realistic, just better than it currently is :p. The fact that beyond a few events here and there that there's no political ramifications or really effects for anything makes the game feel strange, like you're leading a bunch of robots who don't care if you order 5 million men into the Sahara to die of thirst.
 

Jamey

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The problem is that it's a flat amount. Say I build a particular Panzer II in 1938 using X amount of oil. If that Panzer II is damaged irreparably during a training exercise one week later, it consumes X oil. If it's somehow killed in a Polish cavalry charge in 1939, it consumes X oil. If it get sunk on a transport ship to North Africa in 1940, it consumes X oil. If it gets blown up on the Eastern Front in 1943, it consumes X oil. If for some reason I'm still using this Panzer II in 1947 and am invading the US where it overheats in the Mojave and is abandoned, it uses X oil. How is that remotely realistic?

It also ahistorically skews equipment construction. Historically, the Germans altered their formation composition to deal with ongoing fuel issues. They had to plan ahead with how much fuel their forces would consume when building them, and would alter how much motorized equipment was actually deployed based on fuel consumption projections. De-motorizing the army was a serious proposal after Barbarossa. In-game you build equipment at whatever pace you please when you have stockpiles, and since the problem I went over in the above paragraph is present, you build without regard to supply consumption over time. It doesn't matter that your forces would realistically run out of fuel halfway to Minsk because you min-maxed and are running dozens of 40-width Panther divisions in 1940 (not sure if this is still possible in the latest patch), because you paid the flat rate and your divisions will now run forever.
It's an abstraction. It averages out to X oil before you lose the tank. Sometimes that abstraction will be better, and sometimes it will be worse.

HOI4 is a game. It's not a realistic simulation. It uses abstractions for various reasons. I like some of the abstractions better than others, but I never make the mistake of expecting those abstractions to be truly realistic, because that isn't their purpose.
 

hkrommel

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It's an abstraction. It averages out to X oil before you lose the tank. Sometimes that abstraction will be better, and sometimes it will be worse.

HOI4 is a game. It's not a realistic simulation. It uses abstractions for various reasons. I like some of the abstractions better than others, but I never make the mistake of expecting those abstractions to be truly realistic, because that isn't their purpose.

But since we have no idea what X oil corresponds to in real terms (X*3500 barrels of petrol?) we can't evaluate its accuracy. The system is as arbitrary as allowing the entire Japanese Navy to operate, repair, and rearm indefinitely even if Japan has zero resource income.

The purpose of abstractions is to abstract reality to a digestible level that works with game balance. The current system is no better than the HoI3 system, it just messes up in different ways. You and I disagree on preference, but I could say the same arguments to you about HoI3 and it would still be preference. The issue then is why the system in net terms was not improved between Hoi3 and now. It's still unrealistic. Sure, it uses smaller numbers and is simpler, but it's no more realistic. I think there are ways to change the current system to make it more realistic, while keeping enough abstraction to make it manageable for the player and the AI. That's the goal, after all, to portray historical reality and plausible situations as faithfully as possible. The current system doesn't do that.
 

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That assumes that "on the bubble" allies like France stay democratic under those circumstances though.

If the game lasted more than a decade plus a few years, I'd be more inclined to ask for far more of an economic model.

If the game had victory conditions beyond "Drive your enemies before you and hear the lamentation of their industrialists," I'd be inclined to agree with you.

But as it stands now, destroying your economy won't result in a loss because this game isn't Victoria and you don't lost metric tons of prestige and diplomatic clout if you are a major power and fall to a revolution brought on by economic instability. And you don't have to worry about the economic implications of diverting your resources from literacy and economic development to a massive military industrial complex you can barely pay for since those consequences might not be felt for two decades. And you certainly don't have victory conditions that take into account ideology, spheres of influence, competing and contradictory political goals among the ruling elite, and whole list of other things.

I guess I'm saying that with the current parameters of the game, that sort of thing doesn't matter. It's the same argument I make when people ask for money to be included.