Declutter Repeatable Tech in Engineering

[Hastet]

High Density Munitions/Loader Efficiency
^Currently adds +5% damage/attack speed for kinetic weapons. Proposal: add +5% damage/attack speed for kinetic and missile weapons while removing repeatable missile damage/RoF technologies.

Focusing Array/Flash Coolant
^Currently adds +5% damage/attack speed for energy weapons. Proposal: add +5% damage/attack speed for energy weapons and strike craft while removing repeatable strike craft damage/RoF technologies.

Fortified Core Layers/Synchronized Firing Patterns
^Remove these two defense platform technologies.

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Why am I suggesting this? There are currently 10 infinitely repeatable techs in engineering, 4 in physics, and 5 in biology. That's pretty imbalanced from a numerical point of view. Not only that, but you will get ugly weapon synergies if you select random research tech. No matter what weapons system you use, spreading research between missiles, kinetics, and strike craft will be a massive waste of your research.

Also, defense platforms already benefit from shield/armor/energy/kinetic research. Spinning off two more repeatables exclusively for defense platforms is a waste of engineering research--especially since empires can stack multiple fleets to overwhelm defense platforms.

With the new proposal you cut down the engineering repeatable techs to just 4--2 in kinetics, 1 mineral, and 1 armor. Not only that, but the new synergies will mesh much better together if you select auto-research. You will no longer have to worry about engineering research going into weapons systems that you don't use or rely heavily on in your empire.

ALL repeatable research will now lead to beneficial results, with random research being much more useful and focused.

 

[GhostDanny]

Defence platform damage repeatable should be a computer based Physics research, as it's all about computer systems working better together.
Strike craft damage could be shuffled to the physics tree as well.

Strikecraft speed could be a society tech, with strike craft crew being trained better.

 

[MordridBlack]

Defence platform damage repeatable should be a computer based Physics research

The biggest issue here is that this tech just doesn't really make much sense anyway

Defensive Platforms are built by the player, and use weapons that other repeating tech already improve

So why is there tech specifically designed around the defensive platform when other tech does the job?

 

[GhostDanny]

The biggest issue here is that this tech just doesn't really make much sense anyway

Defensive Platforms are built by the player, and use weapons that other repeating tech already improve

So why is there tech specifically designed around the defensive platform when other tech does the job?

The AI builds defense platform on EVERY station!
It makes the AI stations more challenging to take, which is good.

The player can also use that tech to become impervious to End game crisis fleets, if stacking enough into defence.

 

[MordridBlack]

i know that, but since defense platforms use weapons that other repeating tech improves, i don't really see a need for the repeating tech to improve defense platforms specifically

 

[Hastet]

i know that, but since defense platforms use weapons that other repeating tech improves, i don't really see a need for the repeating tech to improve defense platforms specifically

This is a pretty good point, actually.

If we cut out the two platform technologies in engineering, we get four infinitely repeatable techs: 2 kinetics, 1 armor, 1 mineral production. That puts it in line with Physics, which has 4 repeatables.

Modified my original post to cut out repeatable platform techs as well as the justification for doing so

 

[frozenparagon]

I agree the clutter in this field would be significantly improved if the several pairs of weapon types were just merged together. I'd like to see the same done with army in society, but otherwise the bulk of the clutter is engineering for sure

 

[MordridBlack]

given how unliked the army system is by many of the fans [and even some devs] there may come a day where it [and any tech related to it] are removed

 

[GhostDanny]

i know that, but since defense platforms use weapons that other repeating tech improves, i don't really see a need for the repeating tech to improve defense platforms specifically

It's so to make defence platforms more viable, to make up for the fact they can't dodge.

 

[MordridBlack]

It's so to make defence platforms more viable, to make up for the fact they can't dodge.

the issue is that it wouldn't matter

ships will always be able to overpower defense platforms by a wide margin

there is quite literally no reason to have the defense platform repeating tech

 

[frozenparagon]

given how unliked the army system is by many of the fans [and even some devs] there may come a day where it [and any tech related to it] are removed

won't bother me. i'm one of those unfans. I tried to fix and make relevant the army/invasion system in a few ways, but bombardment is just so much more fun :devilsmirk:

I should point out for now there's a few mods that alter the repeatable tech in some way or another. at least one mod merges all the similar fields and disables the redundant one. I've got a mod that caps repeatables (except one in each field) at 10. there's probably a mod that merges all the infnite repeatables in each field into one super repeatable tech

 

[GhostDanny]

the issue is that it wouldn't matter

ships will always be able to overpower defense platforms by a wide margin

there is quite literally no reason to have the defense platform repeating tech

Tell that to my 200k+ stations that solo endgame crisis fleets without losses...

 

[Billy Graham]

I disagree with the premise, I find end game boring, I wish there were both more late-game techs and more repeatable techs. Sure make the repeatables even, that would be great, but I would be extremely sad if a decision was made that reduced techs.

 

[MordridBlack]

Tell that to my 200k+ stations that solo endgame crisis fleets without losses...

so you are playing on a lower crisis difficulty

bump it up then, and you will see that 200K+ station become nothing but death fodder


also don't forget multiplayer as well, players can be ruthless and know how to play

 

[GhostDanny]

so you are playing on a lower crisis difficulty

bump it up then, and you will see that 200K+ station become nothing but death fodder


also don't forget multiplayer as well, players can be ruthless and know how to play

I mean, this guy played with 25x Crisis and could solo Prethoryn Scourge fleets with 800k+ stations...

Offcourse, multiplayer is more difficult as players are better at countering.
But if you're way in the lead with repeatables, there would be little they COULD do, that wouldn't leave them exposed to your fleets.

 

[GOLANX]

I would honestly get rid of explosive damage altogether and lump it into kinetic. There are as many energy weapons as kinetics and explosives put together, its just bloat at this point and doesn't serve a important role in the game.

 

[GhostDanny]

I would honestly get rid of explosive damage altogether and lump it into kinetic. There are as many energy weapons as kinetics and explosives put together, its just bloat at this point and doesn't serve a important role in the game.

Yeah, lump kinetics and Explosives together.
The kinetic ammunition could basically be like smart bullets that can make course corrections mid flight.
The missiles are offcourse much better at it, but it's a method of being able to lump them together.

Engineering still would have the most by far, but more manageable when compared to Physics where you can always get the one you want.

Strikecraft could possibly be spread over Physics and Society, as well.

 

[Seabrook]

I actually do not want any repeatable techs removed, but combine together. Also posted some suggestions below.

1. "Synchronized Firing Patterns" and "Fortified Core Layers" repeatable engineering techs should be combine into one repeatable tech with bonuses from both. "Defense Platform Damage: +10%" and "Defense Platform Hull Points: +10%"

2. The same goes for "Synapse Interceptors" and "Heat Recyclers" combine into one repeatable tech with "Strike Craft Damage: +10%" and "Strike Craft Attack Speed: +10%"

3. Enigmatic Engineering - Ascension perk adds an additional 10% - 20% to engineering research.

4. New Tier 3 Research buildings - New option to upgrade the Tier 2 research building into a Tier 3 Physics, Biology, or Engineering building. Example: "Advanced Engineering Research Complex" old generic name was "Advanced Research Complexes"

The tier 3 specialized research buildings should have 30% - 40% more research points than the other two.
Example: "Advanced Engineering Research Complex" 50 Physics, 50 Society, 70 Engineering.

If you research every repeatable tech end game, your engineering research falls behind by about 40%, this is already with a trait such as "Natural Engineers". Example: "Shield Hit Points" is at 400% while your "Armor Hit Points" is at 255%. I've been waiting 4 years for this fix.

5. "Ambition: Scientific Revolution" split into three different empire edicts.
"Ambition: Physics Revolution" +20% to Physics Research Speed and + 1 Physics Alternative
"Ambition: Society Revolution" +20% to Society Research Speed and + 1 Society Alternative
"Ambition: Engineering Revolution" +20% to Engineering Research Speed and + 1 Engineering Alternative​

 

[GhostDanny]

I feel just shuffling some engineering techs into Physics and society makes more sense than combining most of them.

 

[GOLANX]

Yeah, lump kinetics and Explosives together.
The kinetic ammunition could basically be like smart bullets that can make course corrections mid flight.
The missiles are offcourse much better at it, but it's a method of being able to lump them together.

Engineering still would have the most by far, but more manageable when compared to Physics where you can always get the one you want.

Strikecraft could possibly be spread over Physics and Society, as well.

Kinetic weapons are Hitscan there is no need to change their logic, the projectile you see is a fake meant to hide that fact (a lot of games do this). Although I'm not 100% without looking at the code the damage type has no connection to the guidance, which for GWs would be tied into the weapon or projectile itself (a separate entity in the code). Damage type if I'm not mistaken only exists to take into account your technologies and empire modifiers (strategic resource Campaigns), this way energy weapon repeatables apply bonuses to your lasers and not your mass drivers.

I actually do not want any repeatable techs removed, but combine together. Also posted some suggestions below.​

OP suggested 2 combines. I suggested combining 2 weapon Categories, combining means removing old ones

1. "Synchronized Firing Patterns" and "Fortified Core Layers" repeatable engineering techs should be combine into one repeatable tech with bonuses from both. "Defense Platform Damage: +10%" and "Defense Platform Hull Points: +10%"​

More =/= better, by the time your into repeatables defense platforms are pretty useless, combining those repeatables won't solve that problem. If instead the repeatables for energy/kinetic weapons repeatables had an additional +5% for defense platforms, and armor/shields repeatables had an additional +5% for defense platforms. You'd get the same benefit without the bloat of useless techs.

2. The same goes for "Synapse Interceptors" and "Heat Recyclers" combine into one repeatable tech with "Strike Craft Damage: +10%" and "Strike Craft Attack Speed: +10%"​

Idk why strike craft damage needs to be separate from the weapons. Their balancing doesn't hinge on that 5% bonus either. I would prefer strike craft attack speed be part of society research though, as a subset of pilot training.

3. Enigmatic Engineering - Ascension perk adds an additional 10% - 20% to engineering research.​

That idea makes Enigmatic Engineering too close to Technological Ascendancy. My personal mod gives +1 Research Alternatives to the Perk, so that you get better options instead of better speed.

4. New Tier 3 Research buildings - New option to upgrade the Tier 2 research building into a Tier 3 Physics, Biology, or Engineering building. Example: "Advanced Engineering Research Complex" old generic name was "Advanced Research Complexes"​

Would be a nice idea, but 2 problems, Tech trees are VERY poorly balanced, and 2 I don't think the game can support multiple different upgrade paths on buildings. They would need to be different buildings altogether. I don't think we will see a Tech Tree rebalance until Stellaris 2.

If you research every repeatable tech end game, your engineering research falls behind by about 40%, this is already with a trait such as "Natural Engineers". Example: "Shield Hit Points" is at 400% while your "Armor Hit Points" is at 255%. I've been waiting 4 years for this fix.

5. "Ambition: Scientific Revolution" split into three different empire edicts.
"Ambition: Physics Revolution" +20% to Physics Research Speed and + 1 Physics Alternative
"Ambition: Society Revolution" +20% to Society Research Speed and + 1 Society Alternative
"Ambition: Engineering Revolution" +20% to Engineering Research Speed and + 1 Engineering Alternative​

Same issue. Poorly balanced Tech trees result in a set of priorities with low flexibility. Unity cost X3 isn't much given how worthless Unity is by the time you have access to those ambitions. Also devs have hinted that in the next update we will already be using Unity to make research go faster with Unity Edicts to counter sprawl's impact on research.