Declaring war on vassal of lesser partner in a PU

[jmf8241]

Hi all,

So I am trying to form Germany as Brandenburg. I need to conquer Wurttemberg(I think I'm away from the computer now) to get a border with Nurenburg as that's the final core I need to form Germany. I could declare war on them with the Conquest CB, but a few years ago Bohemia entered a Personal Union with myself and Wurttemberg is a vassal of Bohemia.

On the Declare War screen, it states something like "Wurrtemberg is a vassal of Bohemia and they will protect them. Bohemia is a lesser partner in a personal union with Brandenburg and they will protect them".
Does anyone know what will happen here if I actually declare war? I'd test it myself, but its an Ironman game and I don't want to lose the PU with Bohemia. I'm also a bit concerned that I could enter some sort of weird circular dependency by essentially declaring war on myself as the tooltip states.

Thank you for your time and consideration.

 

[dstarsboy]

Does it actually give you the option to declare war? That's interesting.

I wish you could try it and let me know, I'm curious on this too. My guess is that it breaks your PU with Bohemia and they go to war against you but I'd love to know for sure.

Technically, I think the "Declare War" button should be grayed out in a situation like this.

 

[jmf8241]

hmm that's a good point. I'll confirm that I can actually declare war when I get home. I was playing with this last night, and can't remember if I checked whether the "Declare War" button is actually clickable or not.

 

[Xara]

easy enough to test with console. brb

 

[Xara]

Tested by starting as Thuringia (PU under Saxony) and making Bohemia a vassal. Tag switched to Saxony, added a core inside Bohemia. Declared war using Reconquest.

Thuringia stayed under the union and joined the war on Saxony's side. Bohemia was immediately canceled as Thuringia's vassal.

 

[jmf8241]

Awesome! Thank you very much for testing this out!

 

[TheBloke]

We had a related question in the Q&A thread earlier: What happens when you force-vassalise a PU-master?

Answer: the PU is cancelled when the master becomes a vassal. The former PU-minor gets a new king from a new dynasty, and resumes being a sovereign nation.

 

[calvinhobbeslik]

On a related note, I vassalized a Serbia who was currently at war with Bosnia and had captured Bosnia's capital. I call automatically put into the war against Bosnia after vassalizing Serbia, so I made Bosnia become Serbia's vassal. If I diploannexed Serbia before it diploannexed Bosnia, would Bosnia also be annexed by me, would it become my vassal, or would it become independent?

 

[Reezy]

Unless the game is close to an end, wouldn't it be better to just wait for Bohemia to annex Wurttemberg and then just integrate Bohemia?

 

[TheBloke]

If I diploannexed Serbia before it diploannexed Bosnia, would Bosnia also be annexed by me, would it become my vassal, or would it become independent?

I think it's D), none of the above. You can't annex Serbia until they have annnexed their own subject, Bosnia.

This is definitely how it works with being PU-master to a nation which is itself PU-master to another nation. Although the PU case isn't really meant to happen generally I think, there is a specific tooltip for it, along the lines of "Can't integrate while they have subjects." So I expect same applies for vassals.

 

[calvinhobbeslik]

I think it's D), none of the above. You can't annex Serbia until they have annnexed their own subject, Bosnia.

This is definitely how it works with being PU-master to a nation which is itself PU-master to another nation. Although the PU case isn't really meant to happen generally I think, there is a specific tooltip for it, along the lines of "Can't integrate while they have subjects." So I expect same applies for vassals.

I thought if you PU someone who has a PU, you also get their PU, which is why Castile always gets a PU over Naples?

 

[Xara]

We had a related question in the Q&A thread earlier: What happens when you force-vassalise a PU-master?

Answer: the PU is cancelled when the master becomes a vassal. The former PU-minor gets a new king from a new dynasty, and resumes being a sovereign nation.

Oh, I coulda told you that. Stomped Castile into a pulp as Portugal and forced them into vassalization at last. They were at -90 prestige and due to lose it anyway ^_^

 

[calvinhobbeslik]

Hmm, it lists a bunch of reasons why I can't diploannex them, but "Has subjects" is not one of them...

 

[Xara]

use the console to test things people

 

[TheBloke]

I thought if you PU someone who has a PU, you also get their PU, which is why Castile always gets a PU over Naples?

Yup, that's why I say it can't / isn't meant to normally happen.

But I had it happen once. Weird buggy situation. I was Claim Throne DOWing Spain, but the fact that I DOW'd them seemed to make them change from "PU with England (me)" to "PU with Portugal (also had same dynasty)". Then naturally, Spain's monarch died during the war, so they did indeed fall into PU with Portugal.

Now the wonderous thing happened with the Claim Throne CB, which lovingly just assigns the Force PU onto the Warleader, rather than anything logical like assigning it to a specific nation..

So now if I force PU, it's with Portugal, not Spain. This wasn't Ironman, so I tested the hell out of it to see what would happen.

I discovered that:
a) If I loaded my save, from right before I was ready to force the PU, from the main menu, then sent the peace treaty, I would get the PU with Portugal only, who had a PU with Spain. This was next to useless, because of the "Can't integrate when they have subjects", and the fact that Portugal could never integrate Spain because Spain was way larger.
b) If I loaded the exact same save from in-game, then forced the PU, I got the expected result (what I now realise is expected, anyway), of PU with both of them.

I tested it 5+ times in each case to be absolutely sure. 100% repeatable.

This is not the only time I've seen differences in a game when it's loaded from the main menu versus in-game, but it's by far the most significant. And worrying!

 

[TheBloke]

Hmm, it lists a bunch of reasons why I can't diploannex them, but "Has subjects" is not one of them...

OK yeah I was wrong. It's another thing different between PUs and vassals.

DipAnnex Serbia before they annex Bosnia, and you will gain Bosnia as your vassal.

 

[Xara]

If you annex a vassal who owns a vassal, that vassal is transferred to you. Tested by forcing vassalization on Burgundy with one of France's vassals.
Not surprising, since this is the same functionality as outright annexing a nation that owns a vassal - such as Byzantium as the Ottomans - you gain Athens as a vassal.
Or in the Burgundian Inheritance, if they have Cleves as a vassal, whoever takes the non-French lands will end up with Cleves as their vassal, since the "leftover" functions just like integrating/annexing what is left of Burgundy.

 

[dstarsboy]

I thought if you PU someone who has a PU, you also get their PU, which is why Castile always gets a PU over Naples?

I think this has been changed. I haven't seen it happen in my last few games but this is the way it used to work. Now it seems like PUs aren't passed on when you take over the parent country, they're set free.

 

[Xara]

I think this has been changed. I haven't seen it happen in my last few games but this is the way it used to work. Now it seems like PUs aren't passed on when you take over the parent country, they're set free.

No, I've quite recently gotten Iberian wedding and took Naples under PU as well. It might simply trigger a break if the senior partner didn't have prestige / relations to maintain the junior at the time the senior itself is placed under PU.

 

[Rya]

If you annex a vassal who owns a vassal, that vassal is transferred to you. Tested by forcing vassalization on Burgundy with one of France's vassals.
Not surprising, since this is the same functionality as outright annexing a nation that owns a vassal - such as Byzantium as the Ottomans - you gain Athens as a vassal.
Or in the Burgundian Inheritance, if they have Cleves as a vassal, whoever takes the non-French lands will end up with Cleves as their vassal, since the "leftover" functions just like integrating/annexing what is left of Burgundy.

Imagine my face when I annexed Japan and got ALL the daimyos as vassals. At first I was really glad and then I got -5 DIP per month -_-