Decision Time for Venice - Please Advise

[unmerged(39734)]

Venice GC 1.08 AGCEEP Hard Normal

Nov 1440

Here is the lay of the land

I have been playing a very cautious game. In fact - my wars have consisted of
1) initial war with Humgry - quickly settled - netting me Dalmatia
2) Tuscany dragged me into a war with the Papal States and Tunis. I settled a white peace with the two of them and then dumped Tuscany as an ally.

I have been in alliences with the two germanic nations immedialy to the north and east of Venice (is one of them called Stetin?). I just entered an alliance with Portgal and Castille. Castille certainly looks like it has had a lot of rebels to deal with. Still they both lok pretty strong.

I have been focusing almost exclusively on infrastructure - and I made it to level 3 some time in 1438. Since then I have been printing money (for the first time in the game) in order to build at least one refinery.

To my immediate west - the following nations have been in a game long alliance
1) Milan
2) Roamana
3) Mantua
4) Switzerland
5) Savoy (recent addition)
6) Genoa (recently dishonered)
Milan is doing pretty well. I fear this alliance. I want Mantua (I now have a shield there). My relations with the nations vary from OK (Milan) to great (Romana). This alliance just entered a war with a few one province nations north of Switzerland.

I have been making very good money on trade.

I got the conversion event for Crete - which was nice.

The Ottomans are doing pretty well. They have annexed Serbia and Thrace.

Questions

Do I
a) continue my peacful ways - build refinaries
b) use all my printed cash - call on my Iberian allies - and go after Mantua

Should I focus on Trade 4 or Infra 4 next?

Should I build my refinary in Crete or Dalmatia? Or both?

Is there anything I can do to curry favor with the Arabs. I really want to avoid a war with the Ottamans. And I would really like to get some of their maps. I want to be a colonizer - which means trading maps with Portugal in 40 or so years.

Thanks

 

[Stonewall]

Most of your money is coming from trade. I usually focus on trade 4 and then go straight for infra 5. However, since you're only in 1440, its going to be extraordinarily expensive for you to attain either level 4 economic technologies. Maybe a wise investment would be to put your large income into the military technologies sothat you can fight the larger alliances from a CRT afvantage. Have you hit land 9 yet? Have your enemies?

Taking down the alliance is going to be tough. If you do go to war, you can probably concentrate on the one province members of the alliance, siege their province and force them into vassalizations, increasing your income, increasing your manpower, cutting down on the enemy alliance, setting yourself up for diploannexations in 20-30 years. Additionally, your navy should prevent anyone from getting into Venice and if you can make peace with the countries that border you, and hold on for 3 years, a WP will be signed.

Building refineries is almost never a bad option, especially in 1440. The return they provide makes them the best building investment in the game.

Have you considered taking the northern Balkans provinces to prevent the Ottomans ffrom getting them? They are poor provinces, but the extra manpower may provide useful. Alternatively, you could vassalize them, reaping the extra income and manpower without the associated increases in stability costs.

 

[unmerged(39734)]

Have you hit land 9 yet? Have your enemies?

I am at land 2 or 3. Naval 3.

That may sound low on land - but I don't think I am really behind any of my neighbors.

The real issue for me going to war
a) low Manpower
b) that Offernsive/Defensive slider. Venice starts very defensive.

 

[Underhand]

As Stonewall said, researching either infra or trade is going to be horribly expensive for a while, so why not mint all your income and build a manufactory in every province? Place a fine arts academy in your capital (for the extra 6 ducats a year) and refineries everywhere else. By the time you're done, the tech costs will have fallen and you'll be significantly richer (even after accounting for the inflation gained), so you can hit the ahead of time penalty again! Hooray! God I need sleep...

 

[unmerged(1047)]

How about going for land 5 and then going into northern Italy, using the "assault" option to blitzkreig across the Alliance and forcevassal some/all of its members?

The advantage to such a strategy is that you have a long lead time to plan it - so you can build up your economy and army in the meantime, as well as finding more suitable allies (Austria if you can manage, and Helvetia and the Papal States might be useful). Also, behind the shield of your navy (remember Venice has the straits) and using the assault ability, you can capture territories much faster than your opponents can (assuming of course that they do not have land 5 yet).

Also, each country will drop out of the war and the Alliance when you forcevassal them in a seperate peace treaty.

 

[ProfCC]

Stay defensive in that slider. Did you know that when you get very close to defensive (I don't know how to show that to you or even say it in the correct terminology, but its not fully defensive, but one away), you GET THE 1 IN SEIGE!!!! WOW--that is huge. I just learned that in my last game (I think lawkeeper told me).

Here I must respectfully disagree with my friend and original mentor Sheridan about land 5. In all of my GCs, I think I have used assualt once and never have needed it. Furthermore, I have always ended up a major nation (As Venice I controlled almost all of central Germany, all of the Balkans, part of Russia, all of Italy as well as a major colonizer) and have rarely lost any wars. IMO, I lose more men that an assualt is worth. Perhaps I am not as skilled at it as others. And perhaps in winter provinces like Russia it costs you LESS troops that attrition, but when I played Sweden (again ultimately dominating central Europe and Russia) I NEVER used assault. Yes it was costly in the attrition column and I might have spent less money if I knew how to assualt better, but. . . And if you keep the slider defensive and move it that way soon, you'll siege EVEN FASTER!

I know others have different views than I, but as I am starting to say often in many threads, this game is not about wars but economics and taking land. If you win a siege by assualt but you lost 10000 men, then you cost yourself ducats. If you won the siege by waiting them out and you only lost a few men (obviously this is higher in some provinces and in winter in those winter provinces), then you saved ducats. The one with the most money usually wins this game ultimately.

Now to your point, if you have already allowed the OE to establish their capitol in old Constantinople, then you are already in trouble. They are much, much harder to dislodge from Europe, in fact almost impossible. And they will be the thorn in your side.

You say, correctly, that you don't have enough men. How do you get more men? You take other provinces. What provinces around you will not only give you some more men, but will also protect your butt from your greatest enemy (for now)--the OE? Yes, those same Balkan provinces. I know they are wrong culture and wrong religion---work with me here. That small price to pay is offset by your ability to wage war better. Not only do you eliminate your greatest threat for the first 200 years (the OE) by kicking them out of Europe, you get more land with more men to fight when and if you need to. You can then turn your focus on Italy, your natural land and where you'll pick up the most money.

You are doing right to focus on long range economy, but you will need to fight some wars around here. To me, in Venice's case, you need to fight some initial wars so you WON'T have to fight other wars in your future. The stronger you are, the less likely it is that your enemies will attack you. That allows you to continue to focus on your enconomy and then strike when YOU want to, if you want to. Thus, while your northern neighbors are exhausting themselves in useless wars over the same ground again and again, you are winning the trade wars, colonizing some with money they don't have and then, at the right moments, striking when it fits your needs.

As far as the alliance goes, you have some options---one is watch them very carefully and wait for your moment when one or some of them drop out due to some unforeseen event. Strike at that exact moment. Or, wait till the day that their alliance folds. Pause before they do anything else and DoW the one nation you want. The others may still jump in, but they might stay out of it too. Thirdly, don't fear them and just do it. How many provinces are they? Most of those are probably only 2-3 province nations, thus in total, not all that much bigger than you. Of course, option 4 would be my choice--focus on the immediate need of more troops by going into the Balkans and eliminating the real threat. Bide your time with Mantua--you will always have that CB to use when it best suits you. Grow larger and stronger. In the meantime, you watch patiently and the moment will come (it always does) and either Mantua will be alone or not and you can strike. Don't fear Italy--demand it for yourself, for the glory of Venice. You WANT them to DoW you since that lowers your BB and you can roll in, take them out and force-vassal each with the longer term goal of diplo-annex.

You can do it!

 

[unmerged(36024)]

I recommend leave Balcans to OE and arrange fight between them and Hungary (or fight them once and forcevassalize them). Balkans are poor, dirty poor. It make you research slowww. If you wanna grab some provinces - grab good ones.

For Venice I recommend get some parts of Italy (very good tax values), maybe Austrian gold province (if you can withstand wars with Austrians) and Liguria (second COT) and aim yourself to event-annexions.

Good one event-annexion - Make Cyprus grow, then poof - you own theirs provinces for 0.25 BB per province.
Evil one event annexion - Bring Aragon into Italy, make sure it grabs big chunks of it, then fight Aragon and occupy all of theirs provinces you want just before 1516 - poof, you have all these provinces as legitimate owner for 0bb (except 1bb for starting war with them and maybe some bb for bringing them into Italy)
Same trick can be played with Hungary and Bohemia, leaving Austria just Austria.

 

[unmerged(25609)]

"Some are born at war, some have war thrust upon them, and others go messing around when they should have stayed at home developing their infra and trade."

I counsel patience, Esteemed Doge. The defensive doctrine is a blessing, but especially so later in the game. Land (and naval) tech levels are gained only very slowly in the beginning of a GC, but they come easily a century later, when you have tons of money invested in them - money, incidentally, created by your dominant merchants and well-developed production.
A military campaign at this stage will be a) expensive b) possibly ruinous to our reputation and c) satisfying to our baser urges, but perhaps not as successful as it might be (you might not win easily - or at all)
Every ducat invested in your economy will create a fortune for you, which can be used for armies and fleets and campaigns galore in the 16th century.

How many canpaigns can you afford right now? What if it drags on for a long time? War exhaustion mounts, you get rebels in Corfu, or Crete ...
Or, you take and annex Mantua. Yahoo! 6 BB, and your jealous neighbours turn on you. That shield, and your free CB, will still be there when you're ready. And if someone else conquers Mantua, they're doing you a favour: you can strip it from them for even less BB.

Reach infra 5, and trade 5. Build governors in every province, reducing your inflation. That way, when you need to, you can mint to prepare for an offensive war, or sustain a long defensive effort. Once your TE is over 50% start placing merchants everywhere. Eventually, your income will be outrageous. Your army support level will also increase, because of the grain you're trading. In other words, you DON'T have to conquer territory to increase your support level. In fact, if you conquer it, you may have to defend it. Do you have enough troops to defend against a north Italian coalition, those greedy Hapsburgs, AND the predatory Ottomans? The latter two will almost certainly have more leaders than you get. Your biggest advantage: trade.

By all means, indulge yourself in a nice little war. I hope that it stays nice, and little. Even if I was the aggressive type, I would wait for a good opportunity, like the collapse of the alliance (when one of them dishonors the alliance, for example), or a long war with another alliance (so that they're flat broke and out of troops).

But it's a sure thing - an economically pumped Venice, flushed with trade and manufactories, will rapidly catch up in military techs ... and then leave the rest of Europe eating dust. You can have Mantua now. Or you can forge ahead, make that money, and pluck Mantua later, as one plucks a fragrant flower .... and then you can rampage through everybody's gardens to your heart's content.

And there's not an alliance around that will be able to stop you.

 

[ProfCC]

"Some are born at war, some have war thrust upon them, and others go messing around when they should have stayed at home developing their infra and trade."

I counsel patience, Esteemed Doge.

Beautiful, simply beautiful!!

 

[unmerged(6159)]

I say join that big nasty Italian alliance, and use it to expand your manpower. Pick up Italian cultured catholic provinces that are rich, rather than crappy Balkan provinces. Can you use the Italian alliance against the Papacy to pick up Marche? Or against Naples to get Apulia? Or against Tuscany or Siena to get a force vassalization? That's where I would look.

 

[unmerged(25609)]

OK, you've inspired me. I started a GC as Venice the other night.
Luck was with me. I avoided the Hungarian landslide, caught the Croatians on their own and won one battle, then evacuated by sea. Let the Hungarians besiege Istria and Veneto; expected to have to buy them off later. Instead, Croatia offered me a white peace. Great!

The Ottomans won their initial war with Byzantium, and took Morea. I wasted no time, but declared war on Byzantium myself (without a CB - a near-first for me) Thrace fell easily, and I annexed. No worries about BB, since I don't plan any other offensives. I kept the fleet and a large army in Ionia, both to snuff out rebels, and to respond to a Turkish DOW (I wasn't going to leave an army on Thrace itself for every Tom, Dick and Murad to pounce on. To my delight, the Ottomans never attacked. It's now 1475, and they've been busy overrunning Anatolia and messing with Georgie Skanderbeg (Albania) - and losing.

In the thirty years since I took Thrace, there were 2 (and only 2!) rebellions. Now this rich province is well fortified, and still Greek (as are Macedonia, etc.) instead of switching to Turkish because of the event that fires when the Ottomans own Thrace.

I stayed out of alliances (despite offers from Siena, Bosnia, Ragusa and Albania). I also stayed out of wars. Deliberately. Was attacked once, by Mantua and the Papal States. Took Mantua and annexed it. Again, no worries about BB because I'm still under 10. Was it wise to stay out of alliances? I turned down an offer from Milan, Tuscany, the Pope and Siena - a week later they declared war on Austria, Hungary, and half of Europe. Whew!

Time passes quickly when all you're doing is placing merchants and building improvements. By 1475, I have a Fine Arts thingy, a refinery, and judges in every province. Crete has been converted, and Ionia is on the way (I hope)
Infra 4, and just reached trade 4. Militarily, I am not far behind (a few countries are one tech level ahead).

What now? More infra! Then more trade! I hope to quietly acquire Cyprus by event, and mind my own business until around 1500, when it will be time to load up on the military techs. When I get ahead, have converted Corfu and Thrace, and have a ton of money in the bank, I can go after the Turks, mess about in Italy, or start vassalizing my Balkan neighbours. I will be less afraid (not that I was ever really AFRAID - no, Sir) of Austria. Options galore.
Undisputed ruler of the Middle Sea? Hmmm...

 

[unmerged(39734)]

You made the same mistake I did - by building a FAA in Venice.

There is an 'Arsenal' even that replaces your FAA with a weapons manufactory - very annoying.

 

[ProfCC]

OK, you've inspired me. I started a GC as Venice the other night.
Luck was with me. I avoided the Hungarian landslide, caught the Croatians on their own and won one battle, then evacuated by sea. Let the Hungarians besiege Istria and Veneto; expected to have to buy them off later. Instead, Croatia offered me a white peace. Great!

The Ottomans won their initial war with Byzantium, and took Morea. I wasted no time, but declared war on Byzantium myself (without a CB - a near-first for me) Thrace fell easily, and I annexed. No worries about BB, since I don't plan any other offensives. I kept the fleet and a large army in Ionia, both to snuff out rebels, and to respond to a Turkish DOW (I wasn't going to leave an army on Thrace itself for every Tom, Dick and Murad to pounce on. To my delight, the Ottomans never attacked. It's now 1475, and they've been busy overrunning Anatolia and messing with Georgie Skanderbeg (Albania) - and losing.

In the thirty years since I took Thrace, there were 2 (and only 2!) rebellions. Now this rich province is well fortified, and still Greek (as are Macedonia, etc.) instead of switching to Turkish because of the event that fires when the Ottomans own Thrace.

I stayed out of alliances (despite offers from Siena, Bosnia, Ragusa and Albania). I also stayed out of wars. Deliberately. Was attacked once, by Mantua and the Papal States. Took Mantua and annexed it. Again, no worries about BB because I'm still under 10. Was it wise to stay out of alliances? I turned down an offer from Milan, Tuscany, the Pope and Siena - a week later they declared war on Austria, Hungary, and half of Europe. Whew!

Time passes quickly when all you're doing is placing merchants and building improvements. By 1475, I have a Fine Arts thingy, a refinery, and judges in every province. Crete has been converted, and Ionia is on the way (I hope)
Infra 4, and just reached trade 4. Militarily, I am not far behind (a few countries are one tech level ahead).

What now? More infra! Then more trade! I hope to quietly acquire Cyprus by event, and mind my own business until around 1500, when it will be time to load up on the military techs. When I get ahead, have converted Corfu and Thrace, and have a ton of money in the bank, I can go after the Turks, mess about in Italy, or start vassalizing my Balkan neighbours. I will be less afraid (not that I was ever really AFRAID - no, Sir) of Austria. Options galore.
Undisputed ruler of the Middle Sea? Hmmm...

Looks great my man! As you might imagine from me, I would point you to constructing a solid land bridge of your provinces in case the OE remembers that you are on "their land." In my Venice game, it was very annoying when I was in those wars and could only get my troops there by ship or through MAs. I know everyone thinks they are so poor as to not be worth it, but I promise that boost in manpower is huge and allows you to control your southern front. Once I slammed to door on the OE in the Balkans, I never ever looked south again! As I dealt with the Italians and eventually the Germans, I never ran out of troops and I had a protected inside core of provinces.

Keep it up!

rholt---how is your game going?

 

[jaddboy]

Time passes quickly when all you're doing is placing merchants and building improvements. By 1475, I have a Fine Arts thingy, a refinery, and judges in every province. Crete has been converted, and Ionia is on the way (I hope)
Infra 4, and just reached trade 4. Militarily, I am not far behind (a few countries are one tech level ahead).

I may be way off here, but is it even possible to get to Infra 4 and Trade 4 by 1475?

 

[ProfCC]

Venice starts at trade 3 and I think Infrastructure 2.5 (maybe 3), so yes it is. I think when I played I had them both by 1480-1490 or so.