December 8th beta - Feedback thread - Includes updated extra-text!

[unmerged(21937)]

Well, what alternatives there would be to that?

1) No crusades
2) Fatimids owning lands in Europe instead
3) Muslim hordes spawning in Egypt by events

Can you think of any other alternative? I appreciate your concerns, but unless you can think up a better way to deal with the matter, please do share it, since I can't figure out anything.

 

[unmerged(2456)]

Well, what alternatives there would be to that?

1) No crusades
2) Fatimids owning lands in Europe instead
3) Muslim hordes spawning in Egypt by events

Can you think of any other alternative? I appreciate your concerns, but unless you can think up a better way to deal with the matter, please do share it, since I can't figure out anything.

Well...
1> Raising the base rate of conversion for Islam or lowering it for RC/Orthodox (so that with all those improvements its about the same). That would address the number of catholic population provinces atleast without being deterministic.
2> As its Germany that usually is the one, deal with German overpoweredness. In every case, Germany is involved somehow. England and France sometimes get involved, but its always Germany in the region.
3> Exempt provinces in muslim areas from the islamic purging events even during crusades, except if they have the inquisition in capital. This is a little less direct, but it gives the rulers less catholic members to place as vassals.
4> Strength Fatimids by raising their starting ruler's diplomacy. Since their are no succesor states, the breakup of the Fatimids should be stopped as much as possible. Raise it enough to keep everyone in line at the start atleast and a little leaway (not much). The diplomacy of al-Mustansir is 3! How the hell is he suppose to combat an invasion when all his vassals go away. Either raise his diplomacy, even if is a bit unhistorically high (because lack of it leads to even more unhisrotic results than high diplomacy), or give him a very good diplomat.
5> The stewardship is also quite low. His Intrigue and Martial are okay at best. And because most of the conquest come before 1075, this probably an important factor.
6> Give them Defensive terrain. We gave iberian chrisitans that for similar reasons of being beaten back. Fatimids are also more advanced than Taifia's militarily.

 

[unmerged(21937)]

1) Won't adress the matter completely, since the muslims would have to own the provinces to convert them back. And leads to faster muslimization of Europe where they are present.

2) Indeed, Germany could use some checking after 1.05. Or rather large realms in general.

3) Usually the rulers of the lands have their capitals in catholic lands in Europe though. And we want to get rid of heathens, don't we?

4,5,6) It's just that they were facing problems historically then. They were practically collapsing at the age right after 1066. And when strenghtened, they might be again bullying poor weaker christians like Naples. I'd say first weaken big christians, since that is more of a priority and see if they are still kicked around too easily afterwards.

 

[markmid]

User-made mods are not supported in official patches. It is up to the creator of that mod to balance religious conversion if he so chooses.

Thank you for replying so quick,

Okay firstly, ignore the fact I mentioned a mod

I am also playing a test catholic country crusading, I am getting revolts that allow me to change my provinces religion very, very often.

I was meaning I’d prefer this tweak to be less common, by all means throw in revolts but not with the common chance of just changing religion often, after all the AI doesn't seem to half as much. I feel it makes things too easy really.

I always choose the harsher revolt option which is why I might be getting this more than some of you, in the long run having the province change religion is preferable even with the harsher revolt.

 

[Grosshaus]

In my current game with the latest patch in which I have for nearly a century held over half a dozen Pagan provinces in Sweden and Finland only two have converted this far. Might it be that your monarch is just "too" good, i.e. with just the right combination of traits and attributes for conversion? Mine were pretty neutral ones, no heretics or even scepticals, but no crusading zealots either.

 

[unmerged(21937)]

Generally conversion happens more quickly during Crusades, since many conversion events require active Crusade in their trigger conditions.

 

[Veldmaarschalk]

2) Indeed, Germany could use some checking after 1.05. Or rather large realms in general.

Ah, so those events you have been working on won't be in 1.05 yet.

Well we can't have it all, but at least there is 'promise' of a 1.06

 

[markmid]

Might it be that your monarch is just "too" good, i.e. with just the right combination of traits and attributes for conversion? Mine were pretty neutral ones, no heretics or even scepticals, but no crusading zealots either.

It could be just random chance your right, I would need to test much more to tell for sure. However the revolt events with the chance of changing religion do seem to come in fast. I do confess to playing the Muslim/Pagan mod a lot, which might of exposed me more to the chance of the religious revolt events and it has perhaps coloured by view of it. I will need to play another century with my crusading catholic and reform my opinion based on my experiences there. I feel though if I stick to fighting in heathen/muslim lands I might well keep the same viewpoint.

I think it might be more a question of the quantity of provinces you capture which are not your religion, before it becomes too commonplace in gameplay. I will quit my English duke and do a crusade from a Georgian kings point of view and see what happens on a large scale from that perspective.

As to traits, I always pick zealot when I get a chance because I see no downside to it from a stats point of view and nearly all my leaders get a church education, unless I want a marshal or a steward.

I do tend toward the vengeful, cruel, suspicious and deceitful traits also, because I find martial and intrigue skills to be paramount in my warring monarchs

Anyway thanks for the discussion.

 

[unmerged(2456)]

1) Won't adress the matter completely, since the muslims would have to own the provinces to convert them back. And leads to faster muslimization of Europe where they are present.

Catholicization of Egypt and NA is just as unhsitoric and Egypt and beyond (excpet for Jeruselum proper) converting to islam would be like Scottish muslims.

2) Indeed, Germany could use some checking after 1.05. Or rather large realms in general.

Still because of HRE's nature, just like Byzantium, some extra special events could be used for them.

3) Usually the rulers of the lands have their capitals in catholic lands in Europe though. And we want to get rid of heathens, don't we?

Well if there capitcal is in europe, aside from Iberia (because purges weren't extra special here, but rather the opposite. There were incidents, but these were mostly battlefield ones. The inquisition mostly went after heretics rather than heathens here as well). However, if there capital is in historically controlled Islamic areas then it shouldn't.

We want to rid heathens, but we also want to keep a balance in the game as well as somewhat historically plausable developement. The conversion events are too extreme becayse muslim numbers drop in comparison to catholic and orhtodox numbers, especially catholic. That is wrong.

4,5,6) It's just that they were facing problems historically then. They were practically collapsing at the age right after 1066. And when strenghtened, they might be again bullying poor weaker christians like Naples. I'd say first weaken big christians, since that is more of a priority and see if they are still kicked around too easily afterwards.

Well the problem is they were later replaced by stronger muslim nations which the game doesn't represent. You must also take that into consideration as well.

 

[Grosshaus]

Catholicization of Egypt and NA is just as unhsitoric and Egypt and beyond (excpet for Jeruselum proper) converting to islam would be like Scottish muslims.

It was to large degree (Coptic) Christian already

 

[unmerged(2456)]

It was to large degree (Coptic) Christian already

Coptics, as the game suggests, are closer to Orthodox than Catholics. Coptics would likely have converted to Islam before Catholism because the way Catholics treated them in comparison to how they were treated by muslims. Egypt converting to Catholism is like saying France could easily convert to Islam and could do so within 20 years of the start of the game.

 

[General Guisan]

Catholicization of Egypt and NA is just as unhsitoric and Egypt and beyond (excpet for Jeruselum proper) converting to islam would be like Scottish muslims.

Well, thinking of that the european world was we know it, was almost going to be muslim, it's not too unrealistic. Just think of a battle of Poitiers (732), in which the "united european armies of christianity" got beaten by the far superior muslim invaders... france becoming as muslim as spain was.. England never came to power in France, staying an outpost of christianity, till they make Seelöwe

Sure, starting 1066 the muslims were declining slowly, but I guess if they would have been able to unity in Spain, maybe also with some other muslim factions, they could have been able to make a dash like 333 years before..

German wikipedia artical about it: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schlacht_von_Tours_und_Poitiers

 

[L G]

Problem ive noticed with Byzantium...

In the past few games ive had as a small duchy or county in Europe, Byzantium has fallen before 1125... Every game.

I was discussing this on languish as well and everyone there noticed it too with the betas....

I stared at them a bit during the early game this time while duke of provence and it seems like vassals were leaving in hordes.. Any reason why this happens, and then they are steamrolled?

Seems pretty prevalent.

 

[unmerged(2456)]

Well, thinking of that the european world was we know it, was almost going to be muslim, it's not too unrealistic. Just think of a battle of Poitiers (732), in which the "united european armies of christianity" got beaten by the far superior muslim invaders... france becoming as muslim as spain was.. England never came to power in France, staying an outpost of christianity, till they make Seelöwe

Sure, starting 1066 the muslims were declining slowly, but I guess if they would have been able to unity in Spain, maybe also with some other muslim factions, they could have been able to make a dash like 333 years before..

German wikipedia artical about it: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schlacht_von_Tours_und_Poitiers

Yes, they had there chance, and in a way, they're getting another (look at the number of islamic people in europe today), but that was all before CK. In CK period, as well though, in the east the Islamic nations were having a revival, partly brought on by the crusades, partly not.

In any event, conversion from chstiritanity/islam or vise versa shouldn't be quick. These are advanced religions and as such they can resist conversions better. This doesn't include wholesale conversions by the sword a ruler declaring everyone in his realm is of the new religion. If you look at the beginning of CK and the end for provinces, you'll see the borders barely shifted. Chisitianity gained in Iberia and Islam gained in Turkey and Balkans. However you won't see pagans in 1453. Even the hordes converted by then.

So i would lower them both, but then make conversion rate for Islam the same reguardless (except for a chaplain...if they get one)...Chrisitanity should not get bonuses against muslims or we end up seeing all wide (with probably some orange) across the world, especially as the game continues and there are only pitiful sheiks to defend against powerful and mighty kingdoms.

 

[Redporscheman]

These seem like major bugs!!

I have been playing france in both 1066 and third crusade. It appears that the desmine size penalty is being tied to the intrigue not the steward value. I had a king with poor intrigue but with great steward and I had a very low demesne efficiency. He died and I got a new king with high intrigue but the same steward and my demesne efficiency went way up. I have been watching this over several games and I think I am right here. Also I keep getting offers for mercenaries of like 3000 men at a cost of 30 gold? It is quite a deal but seems unreasonable.

Thanks,

John

 

[LordLeto]

That is WAD(Works As Designed). The desnes penalty was moved to intrigue a while back. Though stewardship still determines how much those provinces make.

 

[Veldmaarschalk]

also I keep getting offers for mercenaries of like 3000 men at a cost of 30 gold? It is quite a deal but seems unreasonable.

Thanks,

John

The mercenary cost in the beta is changed to, they were much to expensive at first so almost nobody bought them. They are now much cheaper but remember that you will still have to pay the montly maintenance cost for them and that can be quit expensive for a small realm.

 

[unmerged(2456)]

This is not related wholely to this beta, but i hesitated to report this before because of the area bug might have been the culprit, but it seems that certain provinces always bounce countiers when they are suppose to go to a random neighbor. Fraymer is FE a major culprit in this reguard (i often play them for challenge). Fraymer is an island, it has no duchy (i believe) and no kingdom set to it. I'm thinking something in reguards to one of these is resulting in this bounce.

 

[unmerged(21937)]

Fraymer = Faeryar?

 

[unmerged(2456)]

Fraymer = Faeryar?

Yea sorry i was in a rush at not someplace where i could look up the exact spelling.