Deceitful / Honest Dilemma

[Grave461]

The stats for Deceitful and Honest have been bothering me for a while now. I'm trying to come up with a way to make these two traits more "realistic", but balanced at the same time. To illustrate my point, let's look at the vanilla stats for these two traits:

Deceitful:
+3 Intrigue
-2 Diplomacy

Honest:
+3 Diplomacy
-2 Intrigue

Now, I understand why Deceitful would give a boost to Intrigue... but shouldn't it also give a boost to Diplomacy as well? If you look at the three jobs for a Chancellor: Improve Relations, Fabricate a Claim, and Sow Dissent... two of these (Fabricate Claim & Sow Dissent) basically involve lying, cheating, and spreading (potentially) false rumors. Wouldn't these jobs be more aptly suited to a deceitful person, as opposed to an honest one?

On the flip side... don't you think an Honest character would have a difficult time fabricating a false claim, or sowing dissent?

Improve Relations I can see going both ways: you can lie to another ruler and tell them what they want to hear in order for them to like you more, or you can act truthful and honorable with them and maybe achieve the same result.

So with that said... it seems to me like Deceitful could boost both Diplomacy and Intrigue. Maybe something like this:

Deceitful:
+2 Intrigue
+1 Diplomacy

General Opinion: -10 (because nobody likes liars)

Honest:

General Opinion: +10
(and maybe some positive modifiers for certain ai_will_do factors, such as appointing to the council, making friends, etc).


This still doesn't seem balanced enough... which is why I'm looking for input and/or opinions.

 

[josefrees]

In the case of honest/deceitful playing a role in chancellor missions, an honest person is more likely to believed than a deceitful person. For instance, if someone you know to be shady (deceitful) tells you your friend is talking trash about you or saying that your stapler is theirs you aren't going to believe them. But that honest friend telling you these same things? Far more believable

 

[Morrowind3]

No reason to get rid of the diplomacy boost for honest.

The deceitful seems okay, just add maybe... +2 diplo to Honest and it seems balanced and logical.

 

[Dragatus]

You're undervaluing general opinion. 1 point of opinion is worth 1 stat point. My suggestions would be:
- Deceitful: +2 Diplomacy, +3 Intrigue, -5 general opinion
- Honest: +2 Diplomacy, -2 Intrigue

 

[Red Earth]

I can see your point, but I can also think of it another way. Deceitful and honest may not just be personality traits but a reputation. In the example of fabricating claims, yes a fabrication in this case means a lie and that means a deceitful act. However the process of fabricating a claim is described as bribing and threatening. An honest man promising gold or a thrashing to someone who helps or hinders the claim may get more support than a known liar would, who may also offer money or a skull cracking but be ignored and get no support due to assumed bullshitting on their part.
Also there's the consideration of your target bribing your chancellor to not fabricate a claim. A deceitful chancellor would take the money and an honest one wouldn't. I don't know if the programing actually works that way but that would be a reason honestly would work better in this case.

 

[joos]

I can see your point, but I can also think of it another way. Deceitful and honest may not just be personality traits but a reputation.

This. I think this is an important point. Traits are not personalities. They are perceptions.

 

[Iron Chariots]

This. I think this is an important point. Traits are not personalities. They are perceptions.

I feel like the game is inconsistent on this. Traits are some combination of perceptions and personalities. Diligent characters, for example, have better stats to reflect their diligence, and brave characters are more likely to be injured/killed/captured in battle because they throw themselves into the thick of the fighting.

 

[Grave461]

In the case of honest/deceitful playing a role in chancellor missions, an honest person is more likely to believed than a deceitful person. For instance, if someone you know to be shady (deceitful) tells you your friend is talking trash about you or saying that your stapler is theirs you aren't going to believe them. But that honest friend telling you these same things? Far more believable

I definitely agree with this, but what if you *don't* know someone at all? How would you know if they were honest or not? So, say for example I'm the Chancellor of Bavaria, and I'm sent to fabricate a claim on a province in India; if the Indian nobility has never met me before, how would they know if I'm honest or deceitful? More than likely, they wouldn't. And if I was sent to India to fabricate a claim or to sow dissent among the king's vassals, it seems reasonable to me that a deceitful person would be better equipped for this type of mission.

I view Deceitful as the personality of an artful manipulator; someone who can lie to your face and seem credible enough not to arouse suspicion. I think that's why they get such a large boost to Intrigue; because they can exploit vulnerabilities in situations and people. Pathological liars, basically.

On one side, I view Honesty more in line with the codes of chivalry (since it's supposed to be one of them). But on the other side, I can also see Honesty as someone who is brutally honest about the world around them, and tells it like it is without a care on who they offend. Someone like Sandor Clegane in ASOIAF would fit the description of latter pretty well, IMHO.

No reason to get rid of the diplomacy boost for honest.

The deceitful seems okay, just add maybe... +2 diplo to Honest and it seems balanced and logical.

You're undervaluing general opinion. 1 point of opinion is worth 1 stat point. My suggestions would be:
- Deceitful: +2 Diplomacy, +3 Intrigue, -5 general opinion
- Honest: +2 Diplomacy, -2 Intrigue

These both look like great ideas. I like the balance. While people generally don't like deceitful people, that doesn't necessarily mean that people appreciate pure honesty, either. See Sandor Clegane reference above.

I can see your point, but I can also think of it another way. Deceitful and honest may not just be personality traits but a reputation. In the example of fabricating claims, yes a fabrication in this case means a lie and that means a deceitful act. However the process of fabricating a claim is described as bribing and threatening. An honest man promising gold or a thrashing to someone who helps or hinders the claim may get more support than a known liar would, who may also offer money or a skull cracking but be ignored and get no support due to assumed bullshitting on their part.
Also there's the consideration of your target bribing your chancellor to not fabricate a claim. A deceitful chancellor would take the money and an honest one wouldn't. I don't know if the programing actually works that way but that would be a reason honestly would work better in this case.

If they're reputations, shouldn't they affect prestige and/or general opinions? One idea I was toying around with was not necessarily giving Deceitful a boost in Diplomacy, since higher diplo skill affects things like prestige and opinion ratings, etc. But, I was thinking about adding a MTTH modifier to Fabricate Claim and Sow Dissent that basically gives Deceitful people a modifier that is equivalent to a +2 Diplomacy boost in stats. Something like this:

    mean_time_to_happen = {
        months = 360
       
        modifier = {
            factor = 0.95
            diplomacy = 18
        }
        modifier = {
            factor = 0.95
            diplomacy = 19
        }
        modifier = {
            factor = 0.95
            diplomacy = 20
        }
        modifier = {
            factor = 0.75
            trait = deceitful
        }
    }

I could do something similar with other MTTH modifiers as well. This way, the Deceitful trait can affect the chances of the outcome without directly contributing to the Diplomacy skill of the character. You could do the same (or reverse) thing with Honesty, too, with other Chancellor related job events, such as finding out the Chancellor is fabricating claims, bribing the chancellor, etc.