Dear Moderators, regarding AARs...

[Sovereign]

Dear Moderators, I would like to politely draw your attention to this issue as it has concerned me greatly for some time.

The dictionary definition of a Report is this:

re·port·ed, re·port·ing, re·ports
v. tr.
1. To make or present an often official, formal, or regular account of.
2. To relate or tell about; present: report one's findings. See Synonyms at describe.
3. To write or provide an account or summation of for publication or broadcast: report the news.

It has become almost impossible to find actual After Action Reports in the After Action Reports forum, most of what is in fact written there falls under the definition of:

Fanfic

Main Entry: fan fiction
Part of Speech: noun
Definition: a fictional account written by a fan of a show, movie, book, or video game to explore themes and ideas that will not or cannot be explored via the originating medium; also written fan fiction, also called fanfic

and

Fictitious Alternative History

Wikipedia definition of fictional alternative history

A genre of speculative fiction is fictitious alternative history is fiction that is set in a world in which history has diverged from history as it is generally known.

Can we please devise a system whereby there is a clear seperation for both authors and readers alike between written accounts of games where no attempt has been made by the authors to portray anything other then the playing of the game of Victoria, from those who write Fanfic and Fictitious Alternative History?

A method where one can quikly access and read true AARs without first having to trawl through pages and pages of Fanfic must be possible by the use of a grading system or notation or perhaps seperate forums entirely. This would be useful to first-time players looking to find out how the game is actually played, as well as long-time players who simply enjoy reading accounts of games played by other enjoyers of Victoria.

Those who enjoy Fanfic and Fictitious Alternative History will also be able to quickly find material of that nature that is of interest to them.

It is quite frustrating however to have the two quite different and distinct forms of writing all lumped together and mixed into the same pot as it were, as those who are interested in one form are likely to have absolutely no interest whatsoever in the other. At the least I think it would be good for the foum to have a dialog on this so that some sort of solution can be found that would be satisfactory to all.

I am sure that other posters here will agree with me, and I am grateful for your attention in this.

 

[OriginalRafiki]

This really sounds like something the AAR forumites (and moderators) would/should/could discuss rather than us GD'ers?

To have a thought on the problem you're raising, I imagine having some form of prefix to the AAR-topic might be a help? Being completely out of touch with the AAR forums these days, I have no idea if it would work, tho'.

 

[Sovereign]

This really sounds like something the AAR forumites (and moderators) would/should/could discuss rather than us GD'ers?

To have a thought on the problem you're raising, I imagine having some form of prefix to the AAR-topic might be a help? Being completely out of touch with the AAR forums these days, I have no idea if it would work, tho'.

Well perhaps the thread can be moved then, but there must be a way of reviving the AAR forum by enabling readers to distinguish between True After Action Reports, and the other stuff people write. The inability to do so probably contributes to your loss of touch with the AAR forum, as well as its decreasing popularity generaly.

 

[Freddan]

Good idea, I don't really read fanfic as I'm lazy and doesn't find it intresting. The ones I like to read are those in log style like LM+.

 

[OHgamer]

This really does belong in the AAR subforum, will move there and allow the moderators there to render judgements and opinion.

 

[coz1]

This is certainly an issue that has been discussed and considered before. But as for a resolution, I think you'll find that most here actually prefer the "fan-fic" variety over the simple "report" you discuss.

I see exactly what you are saying, though I disagree. I enjoy both if they are done well. But the evolution of the AAR here has developed over five or six years time into the form you see today. There are still game-play reports, but most people that stick around here usually evolve into telling more detailed and potentially game-play buried stories. That's why the title of this particular area is called "AARs and Fanfiction."

A perusal through the current AARs can quickly find you the ones you might want to read, but I don't know that you will really find any (or few) that desire to "just tell you what happened." People that write those don't tend to stick around as long as those who wish to write more detailed stuff.

As far as this:

Well perhaps the thread can be moved then, but there must be a way of reviving the AAR forum by enabling readers to distinguish between True After Action Reports, and the other stuff people write. The inability to do so probably contributes to your loss of touch with the AAR forum, as well as its decreasing popularity generaly.

I don't see that the AAR forum needs "reviving" necessarily (some issues notwithstanding.) Nor do I think that what is written here contributes to a "loss of touch" for most. Perhaps for you, but I wonder if you might not be in the minority. I could be wrong.

I know that I would not be here still if a.) I didn't enjoy the games, b.) I didn't enjoy the people, and c.) all I had to read were dry recitations of game play moves. The fact that both can still be found here speaks to the development and richness of the area. Often times, it just takes a little effort to search around for the thing that suits you personally.

 

[OriginalRafiki]

Well perhaps the thread can be moved then, but there must be a way of reviving the AAR forum by enabling readers to distinguish between True After Action Reports, and the other stuff people write. The inability to do so probably contributes to your loss of touch with the AAR forum, as well as its decreasing popularity generaly.

Actually, I've enjoyed both kinds in the past. My loss of touch with the AAR forum has to do with the time I have available to surf the forums (i.e. not time enough to read the AAR forums in addition to the others I read), rather than any inability to distinguish by type.

Usually, I found the first post to be pretty revealing as to what kind of AAR it would be

 

[gosam]

this is a good idea as it would clearly separate things for people who are searching for other playing styles, and people who want to enjoy a good story.

i'm totally for it.

 

[stnylan]

Well, this combination is of course tacitly acknowledged in what the whole subforum area is called (AAR and Fanfic), and personally I think the forum is a richer place for having both sorts feed off each other.

However, what has always struck me when this comes up is where does one draw the line? Take Rensslaer's Fire Warms the Northern Lands as being one side of the grey area. This is an AAR that has alot of narrative elements, but those elements are very, very closely tied to game events and plentiful screenies and comments make this apparent.

On the other side of the grey area you have something like Katapractoi's In the Footsteps of Magna Carta, which is more gamey but still has narrative elements, or even my own CK aar which was chronicle style, with game events clearly highlighted. All these AARs (and there are many more - indeed I would think most AARs) straddle these nice neat definitions. Ultimately I just don't think it is possible to match the definitions to reality.

Now, it might well be that there is a dearth of more log-style AARs, making them harder to find, and at a guess I think that there are fewer of that type than when I first began in these fora. As an observation there are always more when a game is new, but other styles become more common as a game ages. However, that has nothing to do with the set-up of the forums but simply to do with the inclinations of the many writAARs who invest time in their AARs. Perhaps one answer would be, if there is a large body of people out there who want to see log-style AARs (in Victoria, or any other game) then some of the those people might consider writing a few? Otherwise all you would likely end up with is an empty forum.

 

[Sovereign]

Don't get me wrong, I don't think a Real AAR is a dry recitation, anyone who has read Tzar of the Whole World by zeppelin for instance, or The Pharoah and the Prophet by Memnon to name two will know that an After Action Report certainly need not be dry. I just think people who are mopre into the game of Victoria tend to be less interested in the fiction stuff.

You don't need to play Victoria afterall to make up a bunch of stuff that never happened to a bunch of characetrs that never existed. Turtledove probably doesn't play Victoria or have an interest in it either, and he does quite well for himself. It's just that for people who want to read about Victoria being played, there are very few AARs out the anymore.

Maybe I am mistaken and I am in the minority, then for my sake and gosams at least, can we not distinguish the fanfic from the AAR? I skim through so many titles and it's fanfic after fanfic after fanfic (you can usually tell fanfic as it alwasy has "quotes" in it).

 

[Sovereign]

Perhaps I'm holding the issue by the leg, perhaps I should be asking or encouraging authors to produce more AARs... I myself don't have the time to write any more.

Certainly don't want an empty forum.

 

[Amric]

The whole AARland area is titled AARs and Fanfiction General Discussion. Has been for quite some time, actually. Therefore there is absolutely no need to rename AARland. It is the short version of saying the above, which is indeed quite a mouthful. Granted each subfora such as Vicky, EU2, HoI, CK, and Diplomacy is titled such as EU2 AARs. But so what? There are still some log style AARs as well as true fanfiction or as I like to call it Historical Fiction. Is this really such an important bugaboo?

 

[Sovereign]

Yes.

 

[Lord Durham]

The last thing we want to do is dictate what people should write. Over the years the log-style AAR has given way to plot-driven AARs. With the odd exception, log-style AARs pretty well ended during the time of EU1. That's many moons ago.

However, nothing stops anyone from writing one. But, it would be a nightmare to have us mods label them--we don't get paid enough to do that.

Labeling is something that could be done on a voluntary basis by the author, by inserting a descripter in the AAR title. Given the dearth of Log-AARs, then I think it would be easiest if those who wished to write log AARs would be responsible for adding 'Log-AAR' to their titles. If they wish. Again, it's something we can't and won't enforce.

As for 'reviving the AAR forum', there's nothing to revive. It's evolved, and stronger than ever. The only downside is the fact it's become compartmentalized because of all the titles, but that's the nature of the beast.

 

[Rensslaer]

Ahh, yes... Another game topic on which I agree with just about everyone... to a point!

Personally, when I first got Victoria, I found Memnon's Pharaoh and the Prophet very useful in figuring out how to do things in the game and in learning some of the little tricks.

On the other hand, I also found frogbeastegg's *Mr.* Newbie! story just as helpful in many aspects -- sometimes more! -- because she subsumed actual instructional lessons on how to play the game beneath a dramatic story with much dialogue.

Thank you, Stnylan, for using my AAR as an example! I agree it is one that bridges the gaps quite a bit. As a WritAAR, I can't help but see the interest of the story as describing what those poor little POPs Paradox programmed into the game are experiencing on a daily basis in their lives. So I describe that in narrative, drama format. At the same time, about every 3-5 posts you'll see me give an update on exactly what's going on inside the game in a more log format -- this many factories, these are the railroads I'm building, my taxes are this, and then I got -this- event!

I agree with Lord Durham, than those who write log-style AARs could identify them as "LOG STYLE" to catch the eye of readers such as Sovereign.

As a relatively long-time member of the Vicky forum, I would bet that many authors would be hesitant to call their stories "just LOG" because there are fewer people today who come looking for that as there were when Victoria first came out. As an authAAR, I'd be afraid I'd scare people away if I told people up front "there's no fanfic in here -- it's just the game elements".

On the other hand, there are some great and brilliantly told examples of log AARs that stand out. It might be helpful for someone to make an index of them so those like Sovereign can find them more easily. Stuff like Lamprey's Saxony AAR.

Rensslaer

 

[unmerged(17581)]

Is it really all that difficult to click on an AAR, read the first post, find out that it's a 'fanfic' AAR, and then press the 'back' button? In truth, I do not find 'non-fanfic' AARs helpful at all in figuring out how to play the game better. Some of them do illustrate neat strategies and their effects, but you could convey the same information, and better, in the GD forum where one would not have to wade through the rest of the game report to get to the strategy in question. Indeed, I demand that all 'dry' AARs with no creative content whatsoever to be labelled as such, so that I may overlook them in my perusal of quality work.

Though I would like your opinion on this: What about my Secrets of the AARk AAR? From the screenshots alone one should be able to piece together the path, game-wise, that I played the game, since I took a screenshot for practically every battle and unit build change. (Though the screenie of the original build queue somehow mysteriously disappeared, and is no longer on my hard drive. Sad that.)

Wow, I reached 3900 posts! Yakman, I'm gunning for you!

 

[Sir Humphrey]

I see where you are coming from, however I totally disagree with you.

Is it really all that difficult to click on an AAR, read the first post, find out that it's a 'fanfic' AAR, and then press the 'back' button? In truth, I do not find 'non-fanfic' AARs helpful at all in figuring out how to play the game better. Some of them do illustrate neat strategies and their effects, but you could convey the same information, and better, in the GD forum where one would not have to wade through the rest of the game report to get to the strategy in question. Indeed, I demand that all 'dry' AARs with no creative content whatsoever to be labelled as such, so that I may overlook them in my perusal of quality work.

I agree with you completely.

If any branding of AARs is to be done, it should be volunteer only. I mean where do you draw the line between catagories? Its a minefield, and the current system is fine in my belief.

 

[CatKnight]

An earlier respondent, then anonymous and Sir Humphrey echoed my sentiments.

Personally I go to the LAST page (since stories and writing styles DO change over time.) If it looks like something I'm in the mood for, it's easy enough to hop back a little more and start reading. If it's a style that doesn't interest me: Back button.

Fairly straight forward really. There are a lot of AARs out there starting every day, but not so many in any one game I can't run that 'test' on the newcomers in five minutes or so.

 

[Sir Humphrey]

Exactly CatKnight. Most well put.

 

[Sovereign]

Well I'm glad we've debated this topic anyway, and I am perhaps a little persuaded to be less harsh on the Fanfic and give it a try, usualy I just dismiss it as un-gamely turtletovianism.