Note, that is isn't a suggestion of what exactly should be, but rather an example of the maximum of what could be.
One of the most interesting parts of the ancient world is the invention of the idea of democracy, and the republic, in "509 BC" (very conveniently one year before the establishment of the Athenian democracy) the Romans overthrew their last king and established the world's first 'republic'
IR starts during the mid-republic, in 303 BC, just before the climactic and massive battle of Ipsus, which saw the destruction of the Antigonid Kingdom, and before the last Samnite war, when Rome conquered most of Italy, this the era of the Roman republic, and the stats from the devs show that Rome is the most played faction
Yet the game faceplants headfirst into a wall when it comes to republics, as in, republics in general, they not only fail at depicting how classical republics worked, but they also fail at being the very idea of republics, as they are just discount monarchies
but what is a republic in the first place? in order to say that X is not a republic, we need to know what exactly is a republic?
The opening paragraphs on Republic by Wikipedia.
so what does this mean?
It means that a republic is a form of government, where an elected body, that is not the owner of the country, but it's chosen rulers, with the consent of it's people, that govern with the rule of law.
now, this is obviously the modern understanding of the ideology, but a lot of it still translates into the classical world, including the idea of legitimacy from election, rule of law, and (at least the idea) that the state is not the private property of the rich, the few, or just the one, so what makes a republic?
Election, assembly of many, prerogative/Imperium, rule of law, and accountability, what matters for the game is Election, Assembly of Many, and Prerogative/Imperium
So how does IR handle these concepts?
Sorry for just how overly long this post is, but I just don't feel like this is an easy topic to discuss, where a few words can suffice, as it is deep, complex, and basically the whole heart of the game, and as I was going too long on the read, I was also doing it injustice by cutting it short.
Sorry if there are many typos to the end, my autocorrect broke.
TL;DR:
1) Elections should be a thing
2) Offices should be elected, not appointed
3) Add the Cursus Honorum
4) There should be many more offices, dictated by the CH
5) The player should not have unlimited power
6) Governors should not be appointed, but jockeyed for by factions, characters, and the player.
Edit: Typos and TL;DR header
One of the most interesting parts of the ancient world is the invention of the idea of democracy, and the republic, in "509 BC" (very conveniently one year before the establishment of the Athenian democracy) the Romans overthrew their last king and established the world's first 'republic'
IR starts during the mid-republic, in 303 BC, just before the climactic and massive battle of Ipsus, which saw the destruction of the Antigonid Kingdom, and before the last Samnite war, when Rome conquered most of Italy, this the era of the Roman republic, and the stats from the devs show that Rome is the most played faction
Yet the game faceplants headfirst into a wall when it comes to republics, as in, republics in general, they not only fail at depicting how classical republics worked, but they also fail at being the very idea of republics, as they are just discount monarchies
but what is a republic in the first place? in order to say that X is not a republic, we need to know what exactly is a republic?
The opening paragraphs on Republic by Wikipedia.
so what does this mean?
It means that a republic is a form of government, where an elected body, that is not the owner of the country, but it's chosen rulers, with the consent of it's people, that govern with the rule of law.
now, this is obviously the modern understanding of the ideology, but a lot of it still translates into the classical world, including the idea of legitimacy from election, rule of law, and (at least the idea) that the state is not the private property of the rich, the few, or just the one, so what makes a republic?
Election, assembly of many, prerogative/Imperium, rule of law, and accountability, what matters for the game is Election, Assembly of Many, and Prerogative/Imperium
So how does IR handle these concepts?
Let's start with elections, or more accurately, lack thereof; elections are something that happens? I suppose?
IR suffers from the fact that in republics, there are no elections, or more accurately, the next ruler is 'chosen' for 'reasons' which are not obvious, and is determined upon the election of the current one:
We somehow know that Gnaeus Flavius and L.Cornelius Scipio are going to be consul and co-consul, five years in advance, and no actual election is needed, on the 1st of OCT, 455 A.V.C., Gnaeus Flavius and L.Cornelius Scipio are just going to assume rulership, no election, no ceremony, no surprise, no electioneering, they just have been chosen 5 years in advance
So who do we fix this? let's start by making it so that elections are an actual event chain/mechanic that starts sometime into the current admin, IR's five-year cycles help here, as we have enough time between elections as to not make it bothersome.
Electioneering should start 12 months in advance, where all eligible candidates start campaigning for the post, and the election itself should happen 6 months in advance, so that the candidates are known a while in advance, but not so far ahead that nothing unexpected can happen;
We can start by using Stellaris' election model as a base
In Stellaris, elections are somewhat variable, with each candidate trying to achieve something, with differing chances of success, you can throw your weight behind someone, but it's never certain who exactly will win the elections,
Now because IR has actual characters, we can vastly improve on this very simple chance-based system by factoring all the relevant stats of a character, and the player can then manipulate the system further by aiding/hampering certain candidates at the cost of PI, Tyranny, loyalty, Stability, and favours from factions, but it should never be quite certain who will exactly win the election, and the harder you push against the system the harder it should push back, remember, this is a republic, this the whole point of it, that no one man rules alone, and not without the consent of the people
if you try to delay the election to buy time for your guy, you risk destabilising the state and pissing everyone off, want to tamper with the vote? a lot of people are going to be angry at you, and use it to attack you, your rule, and it's legitimacy, want to assassinate someone troublesome? his supporters will use his martyrdom to further their cause, and cause more trouble, as these actions go against the point of the system, why have elections if you can't tolerate the idea that you might lose?
IR suffers from the fact that in republics, there are no elections, or more accurately, the next ruler is 'chosen' for 'reasons' which are not obvious, and is determined upon the election of the current one:
We somehow know that Gnaeus Flavius and L.Cornelius Scipio are going to be consul and co-consul, five years in advance, and no actual election is needed, on the 1st of OCT, 455 A.V.C., Gnaeus Flavius and L.Cornelius Scipio are just going to assume rulership, no election, no ceremony, no surprise, no electioneering, they just have been chosen 5 years in advance
So who do we fix this? let's start by making it so that elections are an actual event chain/mechanic that starts sometime into the current admin, IR's five-year cycles help here, as we have enough time between elections as to not make it bothersome.
Electioneering should start 12 months in advance, where all eligible candidates start campaigning for the post, and the election itself should happen 6 months in advance, so that the candidates are known a while in advance, but not so far ahead that nothing unexpected can happen;
We can start by using Stellaris' election model as a base
In Stellaris, elections are somewhat variable, with each candidate trying to achieve something, with differing chances of success, you can throw your weight behind someone, but it's never certain who exactly will win the elections,
Now because IR has actual characters, we can vastly improve on this very simple chance-based system by factoring all the relevant stats of a character, and the player can then manipulate the system further by aiding/hampering certain candidates at the cost of PI, Tyranny, loyalty, Stability, and favours from factions, but it should never be quite certain who will exactly win the election, and the harder you push against the system the harder it should push back, remember, this is a republic, this the whole point of it, that no one man rules alone, and not without the consent of the people
if you try to delay the election to buy time for your guy, you risk destabilising the state and pissing everyone off, want to tamper with the vote? a lot of people are going to be angry at you, and use it to attack you, your rule, and it's legitimacy, want to assassinate someone troublesome? his supporters will use his martyrdom to further their cause, and cause more trouble, as these actions go against the point of the system, why have elections if you can't tolerate the idea that you might lose?
So, who are we electing in the first place? and for what post?
In classical republics, the idea of elections went farther than just choosing the ruler, instead, almost all important offices were chosen by the "people", and as mater of fact, a person wasn't 'voted' into the Roman Senate, the people elected the magistrate of the government, and when they first got elected into the office of Quaestor, they got permanent membership to the Senate, and then from there, they climbed the Course of Honours until they reached Consul, with each step of the magistrate being elected, and hence the Course of Honours
Further, higher ranks had the authority to wield Imperium, the right to command armies, but as the republic expanded, there was a need for more than just the two consuls, so Pro-Praetors and Pro-Consuls became a thing, after the term was up, the former Consuls and Praetors got appointed to the various governates of the Republics, with full Imperium over both the province as a whole and whatever troops were assigned to it.
So what does this mean in-game?
It means that government posts should be elected, not appointed
The current system of government offices should be thrown out for republics, for this is the crux of the whole issue, for this is the why of why IR's republics feel like discount monarchies, for there is no republican prerogative, offices are appointed, with total disregard for everything, you can put whomever you want for any office, the new parties are a small step in the right direction, but a small step non the less, and it doesn't fix most things, so how do we fix it?
We start by adding elected magistrates that work on the same cycle as the rulers, and using the same mechanics for elections, except in order for a character to be eligible for the next rank, they must have achieved the last one.
This is where I'll stop this section, since I'm willing to bet that most people here know how the Roman government worked, and we could sit for hours debating on exactly how many Quaestors, Tribunes, and Praetors should be elected per year, it should certainly be more than 1 appointed officer, but the full thing is too cumbersome, and unwieldy for a game, suffice to say, it should scale with size, maybe 2C/4P/6Q at or below rank 2, and 2C/8P/16Q at rank 4 (GP).
In classical republics, the idea of elections went farther than just choosing the ruler, instead, almost all important offices were chosen by the "people", and as mater of fact, a person wasn't 'voted' into the Roman Senate, the people elected the magistrate of the government, and when they first got elected into the office of Quaestor, they got permanent membership to the Senate, and then from there, they climbed the Course of Honours until they reached Consul, with each step of the magistrate being elected, and hence the Course of Honours
Further, higher ranks had the authority to wield Imperium, the right to command armies, but as the republic expanded, there was a need for more than just the two consuls, so Pro-Praetors and Pro-Consuls became a thing, after the term was up, the former Consuls and Praetors got appointed to the various governates of the Republics, with full Imperium over both the province as a whole and whatever troops were assigned to it.
So what does this mean in-game?
It means that government posts should be elected, not appointed
The current system of government offices should be thrown out for republics, for this is the crux of the whole issue, for this is the why of why IR's republics feel like discount monarchies, for there is no republican prerogative, offices are appointed, with total disregard for everything, you can put whomever you want for any office, the new parties are a small step in the right direction, but a small step non the less, and it doesn't fix most things, so how do we fix it?
We start by adding elected magistrates that work on the same cycle as the rulers, and using the same mechanics for elections, except in order for a character to be eligible for the next rank, they must have achieved the last one.
This is where I'll stop this section, since I'm willing to bet that most people here know how the Roman government worked, and we could sit for hours debating on exactly how many Quaestors, Tribunes, and Praetors should be elected per year, it should certainly be more than 1 appointed officer, but the full thing is too cumbersome, and unwieldy for a game, suffice to say, it should scale with size, maybe 2C/4P/6Q at or below rank 2, and 2C/8P/16Q at rank 4 (GP).
One of the things that IR gets the wrongest is how anyone can be appointed anywhere, at any time, with dictatorial/monarchical impunity, if you want to give a 16-year-old the title of Praetor one day, make him a general the second, governor of Macedonia the third, then Dictator the fourth, all before the age of 17, then you absolutely can do that.
Which is the opposite of the point of a republic, and flies in the face of not just the notion of the Cursus Honorum, but in the face all of ancient (and most modern) sensibilities
Most notable, are the posts of General, and Governor
Starting with General, this one is a bit tricky, since armies are always on the move, may need a new leader at any moment, and because this is a game, you can't exactly have the idea of imperium work the same as it did, instead, generals and governors should only come from the list of characters that have achieved the rank of Praetor and Consul, since not everyone had the legal right to command an army, or rule a province (note there was no difference between a governor, a general, or a government magistrate, to the Romans, these were all one), so for the sake of gameplay, you, the player, should still get to appoint the generals and admirals of your armies, but only from the pool of characters that have achieved the rank of Praetor or Above, and hence, have Imperium
Governors; this is where the fun begins, because governors are an extremely important, but static positions, it means we can do with them what we cant do with generals
Governors should not be directly appointed by the player, instead, the player, factions, and characters themself should 'jockey' for each governorship, this can be event-driven politicking, wherein each faction, including out for themselves characters, as well as the eponymous player, who all try to get a certain candidate for each governorship, for a given term length, where only characters with imperium can jockey/be jockeyed for the position, and depending on governorships size this can be seen as anything from a slap in the face (maybe divide prominence by governorship size?) to a massive boost to a career, and a coup to the faction that backed the candidacy
Further, in order to prevent this from being whack-a-mole hell, governorships should not work on a synced timer, instead, each governor is appointed for a length of time (with a boost/debuff to loyalty depending on length), and each governorship should be handled separately and independently from each other, that way they are staggered, and do not cause whack-a-mole hell
as to what exactly does a governorship means is a question for another post, be it anything from a glorified face, to technically being handled as subjects, is not the topic of this discussion
Which is the opposite of the point of a republic, and flies in the face of not just the notion of the Cursus Honorum, but in the face all of ancient (and most modern) sensibilities
Most notable, are the posts of General, and Governor
Starting with General, this one is a bit tricky, since armies are always on the move, may need a new leader at any moment, and because this is a game, you can't exactly have the idea of imperium work the same as it did, instead, generals and governors should only come from the list of characters that have achieved the rank of Praetor and Consul, since not everyone had the legal right to command an army, or rule a province (note there was no difference between a governor, a general, or a government magistrate, to the Romans, these were all one), so for the sake of gameplay, you, the player, should still get to appoint the generals and admirals of your armies, but only from the pool of characters that have achieved the rank of Praetor or Above, and hence, have Imperium
Governors; this is where the fun begins, because governors are an extremely important, but static positions, it means we can do with them what we cant do with generals
Governors should not be directly appointed by the player, instead, the player, factions, and characters themself should 'jockey' for each governorship, this can be event-driven politicking, wherein each faction, including out for themselves characters, as well as the eponymous player, who all try to get a certain candidate for each governorship, for a given term length, where only characters with imperium can jockey/be jockeyed for the position, and depending on governorships size this can be seen as anything from a slap in the face (maybe divide prominence by governorship size?) to a massive boost to a career, and a coup to the faction that backed the candidacy
Further, in order to prevent this from being whack-a-mole hell, governorships should not work on a synced timer, instead, each governor is appointed for a length of time (with a boost/debuff to loyalty depending on length), and each governorship should be handled separately and independently from each other, that way they are staggered, and do not cause whack-a-mole hell
as to what exactly does a governorship means is a question for another post, be it anything from a glorified face, to technically being handled as subjects, is not the topic of this discussion
Sorry for just how overly long this post is, but I just don't feel like this is an easy topic to discuss, where a few words can suffice, as it is deep, complex, and basically the whole heart of the game, and as I was going too long on the read, I was also doing it injustice by cutting it short.
Sorry if there are many typos to the end, my autocorrect broke.
TL;DR:
1) Elections should be a thing
2) Offices should be elected, not appointed
3) Add the Cursus Honorum
4) There should be many more offices, dictated by the CH
5) The player should not have unlimited power
6) Governors should not be appointed, but jockeyed for by factions, characters, and the player.
Edit: Typos and TL;DR header
Last edited:
- 13
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