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Doomdark

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Sapura has previously expressed interest in this rather obscure Swedish intervention in Russian affairs. Here is my summary. Enjoy. :)

When Tsar Fjodor dies in 1598 it is the end of the ancient dynasty of Rurik. Power is now seized by Boris Godunov, but his reign is very impopular. A monk claiming to be Fjodor's murdered brother Dimitri seizes power with the support of Poland and several Russian noblemen in 1605. The false Dimitri soon becomes impopular and is murdered. The nobleman Vasilij Sjujski is elected Tsar in 1606.

Soon, another false Dimitri appears in Moscow and gains the support of Poland and many Russians. Sjujski's position is precarious and he turns to Sweden for military aid. In February of 1609 a treaty is signed wherein Sweden promises to send 5000 men to the Tsar's aid in return for the province of Kexholm.

The 26 year old Jacob Pontusson De La Gardie enters Russia in March the same year with a force that is somewhat larger than the promised 5000. He marches to Novgorod without incident and meets up with Mikhail Sjujski - nephew to the Tsar. The two become friends, but Mikhail can only add 1000-1500 men to the force. On May 2nd the force leaves for Moscow, which is besieged by the false Dimitri.

On May 12th the force reaches Staraja Russa after defeating a small force of Dimitri's men. Three days later the Swedish/Russian force overtakes the retreating Russians and crushes them soundly near Kamenka. 1500 enemies are killed. On June 17th the city of Torzhok is taken. On July 15th the intervention force wins a battle outside Tver, but fails to take the city quickly and turns to relieve Moscow instead.

When the force reaches Kaljazin the Finnish elements of the army decide to head back home and De La Gardie has to follow them back to convince them to continue the march. He succeeds and returns to Tver where he intends to wait for reinforcements from Sweden. Meanwhile he sends some soldiers under Some to Kaljazin to train more Russian troops. These manage to repel a Polish attack on August 18th.

Once again, Jacob's men become rebellious and have to be brought back into the fold. The most tired ones are allowed to go home and De La Gardie continues to Kaljazin with a reduced force. Mikhail again urges him to march on Moscow, but De La Gardie wants to wait for reinforcements.

In the end the small army marches on to the Troitsko-Sergiev cloister where it defeats a besieging Polish force on October 28th.

In February of 1610 the long awaited Swedish reinforcements arrive and De La Gardie can march on Moscow with 5000 men. The besiegers at Moscow burn their camps and leave upon hearing of the approaching army. The Polish elements head back to Smolensk. On March 12th De La Gardie marches through the gates of Moscow, which has withstood a two-year siege. The force remains for two months.

In the middle of April a force of 400 riders are sent against a Polish camp at Rzjov. The attack is a success, which is followed up by a second force three days later. By this time Mikhail Sjujski is poisoned and dies, leaving the Tsar's incompetent brother Dimitri in charge of the Russian forces.

Finally the Tsar convinces De La Gardie to march on the Polish camp at Smolensk. By now the Poles have abandoned the cause of the false Dimitri and have decided to back Sigismund's own son Vladislav as Tsar.

On June 23rd De La Gardie reaches the village of Klusina. A few miles away the Polish force of 5,000-10,000 stands under the command of the skilled general Stanislav Zolkowski.

By this time the Swedes are extremely rebellious and the Russians are extremely unpredictable. Sensing disaster, De La Gardie attempts to calm things down (but fails). The following morning the Polish army stands battle ready in front of the camp. The Swedish cavalry charges to little effect, but the infantry refuses to move. The mercenaries start to plunder the camp supplies and then begin negotiating with Zolkowski. The Russians flee.

De La Gardie has no choice but to negotiate with the Poles for the right to leave. He gains the right to march home to Sweden if he promises not to fight for Sjujski anymore.

De La Gardie marches home, but the story is not over. Sigismund succeeds in installing his son as Tsar in Russia, but the Russian people is still not happy, and neither is Charles IX of Sweden. He and De La Gardie make new plans to intervene; this time with three possible goals:

1) Install Charles Philip, brother of Gustavus Adolphus, on the Russian throne.

2) Break Novgorod lose from Muscovite control and restore the Republic.

3) Take Ingermanland and Kexholm from Russia.

A new army is raised and DLG starts taking Russian cities and forts around the Gulf of Finland. While besieging Ivangorod the army, which is largely mercenary deserts him once again. The siege is failed, but meanwhile another Swedish force has taken Ladoga.

In 1611 Ladoga is retaken by Russians and DLG fails to take Nöteborg. However, he takes Kexholm and marches on Novgorod. After some failed negotiations he decides to take the city by force. A successful nightly attack on July 15th allows De La Gardie to enter the conquered city by dawn. The Russians in Novgorod agree to support Charles Philip as Tsar. On September 12th Ladoga falls to Sweden once more. Tichvin and Staraja Russa follow suit, but Pskov repels the Swedes. On October 30th Charles IX dies, and Gustavus Adolphus assumes the throne. He is not as keen as his father on putting a Swede on the Russian throne, but is more interested in conquered territory.

During the early months of 1612 Staraja Russa falls to cossacks, but these are later completely crushed by Evert Horn. He proceeds to take Nöteborg and Kopore, then Jama and Gdov. Ivangorod falls on December 4th of 1612. Another attack on Pskov fails and the Swedes are by now very tired and disease runs rampant. Meanwhile the Polish puppet Tsar has been deposed after the defeat of Chodkiewicz outside Moscow.

In February of 1613 Michail Romanov is elected Tsar and the Russians manage to retake Gdov and Tichvin. However, the end of the Kalmar war against Denmark means that Gustavus can send reinforments.

Meanwhile the Russians have built up a new army near Bronnicy, and the Swedes lay siege on June 27th of 1614. The Russians are soundly defeated and chased away on July 14th. Now Gustavus himself arrives and takes charge of operations. Gdov is retaken, and Olonets falls to another attack. In the autumn Gustavus and DLG return to Sweden, leaving Novgorod in the hands of Evert Horn. He has orders to convince the city to secede from Russia, but the citizens are not thrilled.

Peace negotiations with Romanov start in 1615 while Gustavus attempts to improve his position by taking Pskov. This fails and the war drags on until 1617. Peace is finally signed on February 17th and the Swedes gain Kexholm and Ingermanland, denying the Russians their access to the Baltic Sea.

The conclusion to this is that the Time of Troubles could have ended much differently if the Poles and Swedes had backed up the same candidate. In fact, Russia was completely in the hands of foreign interests until Michail Romanov could ascend to the throne. It also goes to show that Sweden did not have much trouble handling Russia when not occupied with other conflicts; a state that prevailed until the days of Peter the Great, and a reason that he was so terribly underestimated.

[This message has been edited by Doomdark (edited 22-07-2000).]
 

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On June 23rd De La Gardie reaches the village of Klusina. A few miles away the Polish force of 5,000-10,000 stands under the command of the skilled general Stanislav Zolkowski.

It was actually 6,000 Poles to be precise (of only 200 were infantry) defeated 30,000 Muscovite and 5,000 German and Scottish. You really are underestimating the importance of this battle :)

Also the German and Scotts did not negotiate. They did capitulate after being defeated, they had to swear not to lift a hand against the Commonwealth again. Many of them were used in the later campaign.

Also in reality: the English and Scotts did not take part in the battle, they made peace terms with the Poles, though the Swedes / Germans / French DID participate. The whole battle lasted about 5 hours. Non-Muscovite forces lost between 500-700 men (according to Videking), and a bit more during the retreat. The Muscovites lost around 3000 dead and wounded, losses would amount to about 5,000 of the mercenary / Muscovite soldiery.

Poles lost 250-300 dead, 400 horses fell.

Smolensk was captured in 1611, after a 2 year siege, something comparable to the siege of Moscow by the Swedes.


Meanwhile the Polish puppet Tsar has been deposed after the defeat of Chodkiewicz outside Moscow.

Chodkiewicz was not defeated outright, his primary aim was to either relieve the Polish garrison in Moscow, or to recover them at all possible costs. He managed to save a portion of them, but was outnumbered and retreated. He only had with him an army of between 2000-3000 men, mostly cavalry :( Whilst the remaining Polish garrison capitulated. The Poles again attempted to move on Moscow in 1617-18, but were unable to capture it due to serious winter conditions. However, by the treaty of 1618 at Dulino, Poles took Smolensk, Siewerska and czernihowska provinces. These were provinces that the Lithuanians lost to the Muscovites more than a century previously.


Either way, the Swedes / Poles lost their only good opportunity of controlling Moscow. Working together its not unfeasable that they could have partitioned it between themselves.

Sapura

[This message has been edited by Sapura (edited 22-07-2000).]
 

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Smolensk was captured in 1611, after a 2 year siege, something comparable to the siege of Moscow by the Swedes.

Um, read my post more carefully. The Swedes lifted a two year siege of Moscow by the forces of the false Dimitri and supporting Poles.

defeated 30,000 Muscovite and 5,000 German and Scottish. You really are underestimating the importance of this battle

Although my sources don't mention the exact strength of the Russian part of De La Gardie's task force, I find the figure of 30,000 completely unrealistic. If Sjujski had been able to field that kind of force by himself he wouldn't have had to sit cooped up in Moscow for two years when DLG's small force of 5,000 could scare the besiegers away. At least that's the way it seems to me... In any case, the Russian forces were rabble, and the mercs were extremely unreliable. Even the Swedes abandoned De La Gardie at Klusina.
 

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Although my sources don't mention the exact strength of the Russian part of De La Gardie's task force, I find the figure of 30,000 completely unrealistic.

As unrealistic as the '1500-2000' Polish casulaties at Gniew eh? ;) All sources that I've read state their numbers at between 25 and 35,000 men.


If Sjujski had been able to field that kind of force by himself he wouldn't have had to sit cooped up in Moscow for two years when DLG's small force of 5,000 could scare the besiegers away.

Sjuski did NOT field the whole army by himself he had support from friendly Cossacks and several other major players during the war. Also, some of the forces that played part in the battle were safely garrisoned at 'Carowo Zajmiszcze', for most of that time, until they joined the army.

At least that's the way it seems to me... In any case, the Russian forces were rabble, and the mercs were extremely unreliable. Even the Swedes abandoned De La Gardie at Klusina.

Rabble that gave the Swedes several defeats previous to and after the battle in other conflicts. Numerous rabble.

As I said, the mercs were not unreliable. The Germans, along with the French fought until they were soundly routed and capitulated. As for the Swedes abandoning De La Gardie, that just seems to prove the superiority of the opposing force :)


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[This message has been edited by Sapura (edited 22-07-2000).]
 

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Originally posted by Sapura on 07-22-2000 11:07 PM


'As I said, the mercs were not unreliable. The Germans, along with the French fought until they were soundly routed and capitulated. As for the Swedes abandoning De La Gardie, that just seems to prove the superiority of the opposing force :)'

And I say now that the mercs were very unreliable. :)
The Swedish army consisted of two parts:
1) Swedes and Finns under De la Gardie (Cav)
2) French&German Mercs subcommanded by Konrad Link (Inf)

When the battle begun the swedish cavalry bravely attacked the Polish main force but was beaten back (they were less that 1000men). What were the mercs doing during the fighting ? Pillaging the swedish supply train. After the first clash De la Gardie payed the mercs 12450 rubles to get them fighting but they didn't their leader, Konrad Link, started a NEGOTIATION with Zolkowski and changes side. De la Gardie has only 400 men alive (swedes and finns) and are forced to retreat. So most of the swedish army were lost thanks to defection NOT to any serious fighting. Had they been well paid from the beginning and had they fought this battle wouldn't have been written down in Polish History books as a deceisive victory.

I concede that the effects of what happened at Klusina was devestating for the 'swedish cause' and a major POLITICAL victory for the PLC, but saying that the polish army won a great victory there isn't true.

/Greven
 

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I concede that the effects of what happened at Klusina was devestating for the 'swedish cause' and a major POLITICAL victory for the PLC, but saying that the polish army won a great victory there isn't true.

Of course they won a great victory over a much more numerically superior opponent. The Russians may have been rabble, but they were very numerous, and the mercs (French and Germans)fought with the Russians without bribing anyone. I've read through the accounts of this battle - detailed accounts so I am in a position to know.


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Originally posted by Sapura on 07-23-2000 06:25 AM
I concede that the effects of what happened at Klusina was devestating for the 'swedish cause' and a major POLITICAL victory for the PLC, but saying that the polish army won a great victory there isn't true.

'Of course they won a great victory over a much more numerically superior opponent. The Russians may have been rabble, but they were very numerous, and the mercs (French and Germans)fought with the Russians without bribing anyone. '

If you call winning against a far smaller swedish force a major victory thats up to you. But the Russians didn't fight and the French and the German mercs did not fight in that battle.


'I've read through the accounts of this battle - detailed accounts so I am in a position to know.'

What do you want to tell me with this ? That I haven't ? :)You know what my answer is ?
I've read through the accounts of this battle - detailed accounts so I am in a position to know.

/Greven
 

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If you call winning against a far smaller swedish force a major victory thats up to you. But the Russians didn't fight and the French and the German mercs did not fight in that battle.

No, it was a major victory over the Russians, not over the Swedes. Though the Swedes DID participate in the battle ...


But the Russians didn't fight and the French and the German mercs did not fight in that battle.

?????, <confused now> so if they didn't fight there was no battle at all, they just surrendered did they? Close to 30,000 men surrendered without a shot? Why not call it 'surrender' at Klushino instead of battle at Klushino then? You're not making much sense.. :)

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Originally posted by Sapura on 07-23-2000 06:04 PM

'No, it was a major victory over the Russians, not over the Swedes. Though the Swedes DID participate in the battle ...'

I concede to the points that it was a victory over the russians and the swedes. But if it was a major victory? Well maybe. In one way it was but think it is more of a political victory than a military victory. Why? The major political victory was that the swedish supported russian faction was a 'gooner'. Military though an excellent polish army fought roughly 1000 swedes and finns and a mass rabble of russian. The cream of the swedishlead army wasn't participating.

'?????, <confused now> so if they didn't fight there was no battle at all, they just surrendered did they? Close to 30,000 men surrendered without a shot? Why not call it 'surrender' at Klushino instead of battle at Klushino then? You're not making much sense.. :)'

Sorry my faulty writing. The russians fought. I somehow forgot that they did as they were military...hrrm.. worthless at the time. When you say 'The Surrender at Klusina' I think you hit the nail. Yes that is what I think it was, a big surrender.

One thing though, trying to leave the infectious side of the discussion for a while, it is interesting that polish and swedish sources diverge so much in the description of the event of the battle. I wonder what the Russian sources say, if there are any. I have only told you what what written in my sources and you of course in yours. I believe that they diverge to much. Someone one either or both sides have been... hrrm... recreating history a bit for political reasons. This , Sap, would be a marvellous researchproject to bite into scanning royal polish army documents and swedish royal army documents.Then taking documents from reporters of the battles (usually generals and colonels) and compare them to what was written down by the royal secretariate and then compare that with the official version that was trumpeted out to the world. Somewhere on the road changes liberately or unliberately has been made. :)

/Greven
 

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I concede to the points that it was a victory over the russians and the swedes. But if it was a major victory?

Well, in all references I read it as a defeat of the Muscovites and the Swedes who were sent out to help them + the mercenaries. Although most references aren't terribly -detailed-..

Military though an excellent polish army fought roughly 1000 swedes and finns and a mass rabble of russian. The cream of the swedishlead army wasn't participating.

I never say they were, but there was a small contingent of Swedes / Finns there. I never said that it was a major victory over the 'Swedes', but it was a major victory over the Russians during the time of troubles - it shifted the balance quite considerably. Maybe youre right, it was more of a political victory, but it proved to the Muscovites that they need to reform their armies - hard and fast. The Swedes too, only had a small contingent because they were arrogant enough to think it would be enough ..

rom reporters of the battles (usually generals and colonels) and compare them to what was written down by the royal secretariate and then compare that with the official version that was trumpeted out to the world. Somewhere on the road changes liberately or unliberately has been made.

Oh, but I have Greven :) Have you ever read 'Zolkiewski's Diary' of his expedition to Muscovy and the Moscow experience? He's written one and I've been trying to find it, though an english version was printed some 20 years ago - not easy to find. He explains most details of the war in this diary -- including the battle. He details his anger at the King who dragged his feet and royally (haw-haw..) screwed up a chance to control Russian for a longer time frame.

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OK Greven, you wanted this :) A complete though rough action replay of the battle. Translated not too well, but you'll get the general gist of it.. Comments?


Meanhwile .. the main Russian forces under Szujski and De la Gardii were arriving, Zolkiewski's army found itself in danger. From one side they had 5-6 Muscovites closed up at Carowym Zajmiszcem, from the other -- nearly 30,000 soldiers of Szujski and de la Gardie.

Under the fortress of Carowo he left 800 infantry, 700 cavalry, and 4,000 Cossacks. Then he moved unto Szujski with 5556 hussars, 1000 light cavalry, 200 infantry and 2 pieces of artillery.

Zolkiewski sent out a French envoy to the mercenary camp allied with the Russians. A frenchman. Letter detailed their possibly joining of the Polish army. This envoy however was captured by Muscovites and hanged. Szujski thought that the Hetman's small army would be not match for him.

The army of the muscovites-mercenaries moved in two groups. On the right, were the foreign contingents .. made up of Swedes / Germans / French / Spanish / English and Scotts. On the left were the Russians. In frontal formations the foreign contingent stood with infantry, behind some defensive establishments, partially destroyed by poles previously. Secondly there was the foreign contingent cavalry. Frontal formation was made up of pikemen, musketeers and arquebusers, 2nd of rajtars with rapiers and pistols.

On the left Szujski had cavalry mixed up with infantry, at the back only cavalry. Russian army was made up of pospolite ruszenie, Russian royal guards, and so called 'sons of Boyars' rajtars, armoured in foreign style. Astrakhan / Kazan tartars were also present in this formation. The Russian army had 11 artillery pieces.

Around 4am the battle started with a hussar battle cry and their subsequent charge into Russian formations. The Hussars charged incessantly till lunchtime, because of the huge superiority of the Russians in numbers.. The break came after an unsuccessful karakol of the Muscovite rajtars.. the hussars charged again, and the Muscovite formations broke completely. Polish cavalry / light / and hussar charged after the running Muscovites all the way to their fortress. Despite this however, a good portion of the Muscovite infantry stayed behind wanting to battle to the last with the foreigners, who so far had only been attacked with infantry. A harder battle would be fought by the Poles on the left hand side of the enemy formation - foreign contingent. The Polish attack had to move through difficult terrain and obstacles, broken defences and other such stuff. As Zolkewski says .. 'the battle was long and hard because both our soldiers and their fought very valiantly..' The foreigners stood behind a fence with muskets shooting at the uncoming Polish attack and giving them some problems, whilst the Pikemen were successful in stopping more Polish advances. The break in the battle came finally when the Polish infantry (with artillery) came into play. (again, proof that it wasn't all hussars as silly as it is in most books) Polish artillery with a few good shots destroyed the major defenses of the 'fence' guarding the foreigners, causing many of the musketeers grave losses. The Polish infantry together with light cavalry then fired at them, after which they charged into their position not 'bothering about the incoming fire', the foreigners were unable to guard agains this attack and withdrew. The Enemy running from the battle now closed himself off in fortresses. Pontusson de la Gardie and Gen. Horn were in a near by forest unable to do anything decisive, along with the foreign contingents that retreated earlier from the fence.

Many sources give differing views of the foreign contingent of the army: Giovanni, says the English and Scotts didn't want to fight after reaading part of the earlier letter Zolkiewski sent out, however the French were fighting from the word go.

Anyway, during talks, the Hetman allowed some foreign contingents to move away from the battlefield, under conditions that they would never fight for Moscow again. Close to 2000 then moved into Polish service, after the Germans saw in what condition the Muscovites were at their fortress after the retreat. The whole battle took 5 hours. Sources claim over 5,000 Muscovites and foreigners fell on the battlefield, together during the retreat. Foreigner losses are said to have been between 500-1000 men. De la Gardie and Horn were later beaten up 'with sticks' by angered peasants with most of their possessions stolen.. heh..

Polish losses were 200-300 dead, 400 fallen horses, also a lot of wounded. The enemy at Carowym did not believe of the Polish victory until they saw the captured prisoners and other such proof, in which case the Russians agreed to capitulation talks with the Poles.


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Originally posted by Sapura on 07-24-2000 08:53 AM
'The Swedes too, only had a small contingent because they were arrogant enough to think it would be enough ..'

No, not arrogant. They were _stupid_ enough to rely on expensive mercenary infantery. It is better to have infantry of lower quality that fights, than high quality infantry that doesn't.


'Oh, but I have Greven :) Have you ever read 'Zolkiewski's Diary' of his expedition to Muscovy and the Moscow experience? He's written one and I've been trying to find it, though an english version was printed some 20 years ago - not easy to find. He explains most details of the war in this diary -- including the battle. He details his anger at the King who dragged his feet and royally (haw-haw..) screwed up a chance to control Russian for a longer time frame.'

I never doubted that you have read all polish sources you could lay you hands on Oh Great Eagle. :) What I am talking about is triangulation. You have to compare many different sources to find out who is lying about what. One can never approach any source uncritically.

As you have given a good exerption from a polish source I give you one from a swedish one. :)

On June 23rd De la Gardie marches towards the little hamlet called Klusina. 30 km away lies the Polish army camped. It size is estimated to be 5000 to 10000men (ie swedish intelligence) . The poles are commanded by Stanislav Zolkowski a competent man and the disciple of the great warrior Zamoiski. De la Gardie has got problems. The russian army isn't trustworthy and the swedish part (swedes+mercs) are on the verge of revolt. De la Gardie gets the russians to capm separately and the swedish force is placed behind a wodden fence which the soldier tears down rather immediately. At sunrise the Polish army has taken field formation in front of the swedish camp. De la Gardie and Evert Horn commands a wild but futile cavalry charge against the poles, which refutes it without any problem. The swedish infantry (mercs) doesn't move a finger to support the cavalry. The russian force flees the battlefield. Zolkowski moves his forces in between the swedish cavalry and the infantery and De la Gardie is forced to rtreat back to the camp. In the camp everything is in chaos. The two commanders tries to rally the force but nothing happends. The mercenaries starts to plunder the supply wagons, and their subcommander Konrad Link starts to negotiate with Zolkowski and joins the Polish side. at this moment De a Gardie doesn't see any way out and after a brief negotiation he gets a free retreat from the area if he swears that he will not again fight for Vasilij Sjujski. Back at camp he tries to keep the mercs that hasn't gone over to the polish capm by paying them 12450 rubles. Even as they have got payed they join the polish side. De la Gardie is forced o retreat to Pogarelau, with only 400 swedes and finns, where a force under Pierre de la Ville is waiting. However, when he arrives a violent uprising has started forcing him to fight his way out. There after retreatig towards the swedish border.

As you can see Sap the sources diverge some... :)

/Greven
 

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Greven,

They diverge in only one strong way -- yours basically offers very little detail on the Muscovite actions during the battle, if that is the full description of the battle. Apart from that its actually quite close to my translation of the battle.

Heh .. I'm still chortling over that email msg you got ... almost spilled my drink when I read the punch line.. :)

Sapura

[This message has been edited by Sapura (edited 25-07-2000).]
 

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Originally posted by Sapura on 07-25-2000 05:59 AM
Greven,

They diverge in only one strong way -- yours basically offers very little detail on the Muscovite actions during the battle, if that is the full description of the battle. Apart from that its actually quite close to my translation of the battle.

Yes, exactly. And what do we learn by that. I say that it is flagrantly evident that De la Gardie tries to hide something when he said that the Russians fleed the field. I mean why should the poles lie about fighting the russians. Doesn't seem right. On the other hand it seems that the polish side was a bit to got informed. The russians had 11 artillery guns. Did they count them at the place ? There is reductions and additions on both sides. But with a 'pro eye' I would have more confidence in the polish one than in the swedish one _on the whole_.

/Greven
 

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I mean why should the poles lie about fighting the russians.


Most of the sources of this battle (and war) are taken from Zolkiewski and his generals. Zolkiewski at least can be trusted, he was a very intelligent man, who had no personal hatreds against the Russians. Infact had he been king instead of that FOOL in Warsaw at the time, we could be looking at a different map of e. central Europe right now.


The russians had 11 artillery guns. Did they count them at the place ? There is reductions and additions on both sides.

Well, it's not too difficult to prove it. The Russians ran -hard- after they were broken by the Poles. Would they have had time to drag their artillery back into the fortifications, doubt it :0 The Poles came by, 'oh more artillery - yay' ...

But with a 'pro eye' I would have more confidence in the polish one than in the swedish one _on the whole_.

I'm still looking for an english v. of Zolkiewski's Moscow diary .. that would be invaluable to discuss conduct of all sides in the war.

Sapura