De Jure Drift Conflict and vassal Merchant Republics

[Jon Rich]

So I started as the Duke of Flanders (Ruler Designer) in 769. I took the two western counties with a de jure CB, and I've kept all six counties in my demesne. I expanded into Brittany, became the King of Brittany, and over the last few generations, I took over England, became King of England, and installed my dynasty on the throne of Scotland. I've also moved into Ireland, and so have the Scots. My female character, the Queen of England, is married to the King of Scotland, and their kid is going to inherit it all.

Meanwhile, Charlemagne formed the Empire of Francia, so I've been a vassal this entire time. The Empire has held together, though nearly all the Kingdoms but West Francia have spun off and become Elective. Anyways, I've done testing (killing the King and Queen so their heir inherits), and if I get Britannia to form, the Duchy of Flanders continues to drift into the Kingdom of England, but not into Britannia. I should mention that I also control the Duchy of Holland through a vassal, so I can form Frisia if I wish to.

So my question is, if Flanders drifts into England, doesn't that make it automatically drift into Britannia? It's only 40 years along with England at the moment, so I'd rather not just "try it and see," since that would take forever.


My SECOND question is about vassal Merchant Republics. It'd be really useful to have one, and I'm debating whether to turn Holland into a Merchant Republic, or to do it to Brittany. Problem is I can't give away that Kingdom title, but I can fix that by destroying it and/or giving it (via console) to a Republic vassal I create. I still have a County in Brittany in my demesne (high Stewardship is AWESOME) , so I can do that easily. Interesting thing to note when I've done testing is that a Duchy-level Republic in Brittany dislikes me because it wants the Kingdom, but Kingdom-level Republic doesn't have the relationship malus of being a King.


Of course, a King-level Brittany is a "Powerful Vassal," but I'm wondering if it's going to have that modifier because it's a King, or just because it's one of the most powerful Duchies I've got going.

Holland is closer to my capital (Brugge, and it's going to stay Brugge. I'm forming a combined Britannia/France thing, that's my end goal, but the capital will always, always be Brugge), so that is easier for revolt-stomping, yes? Though I've heard that you want it in your de jure Kingdom. Well, I can create the Kingdom of Frisia, but I don't want to, because then Flanders stops drifting, and I'd like to have my powerbase (England + Flanders) all under one Kingdom, and also having the Kingdom of Frisia will give the nasty "desires Kingdom" malus to my republic vassal.

So the choices are a duchy-level Brittany (I'd destroy the Kingdom before giving it to them), a Kingdom-level Brittany, or a Duchy-level Holland, for the merchant republics? Holland will, in the end, be in the same position as Flanders (See below, on the de jure drift), so knowing that would be a massive, massive help, please!

I'd really, really, really like to know if Flanders is going to drift into Britannia when it drifts into England, or is it going to be stuck in this weird situation where it's de jure part of the Kingdom of England, but it's also de jure part of the Empire of Francia? Because I'd really, really rather not have to deal with infinite assaults from Francia because my capital is in their de jure territory forever.

 

[Thrake]

So my question is, if Flanders drifts into England, doesn't that make it automatically drift into Britannia? It's only 40 years along with England at the moment, so I'd rather not just "try it and see," since that would take forever.

Yes, into Brittania.

 

[FraterPsychonaut]

Yeah, when the duchy drifts to the kingdom it becomes part of that kingdom's empire.

I'd strongly advise against giving any more than a single barony/county to a MR, unless you want an inevitable civil war versus someone who pound to pound, territory for territory will totally outclass you.

Flanders is fine just distribute the other counties to your other dukes first, or better yet use Mann, so it doesn't have the de jure claims.

You want to personally hold every castle in your capital duchy for the capital bonuses to your levies. (Hold all the castle baronies and counties and have a competent marshal raise levies and you'll be fielding doomstacks from your capital duchy alone.)

The strong vassal is purely ranked on # of territories held with the tie breaker being age, rank and troop strength are irrelevant. (Devs confirmed a few days ago in another thread.)

 

[StarSword]

If you're in Britain, really the best place to put a vassal merchant republic is Mann. It's a single-county de jure duchy so you don't need to worry about it getting too powerful, and you can take it in a single war. In your case, your kid will be King of Scotland, which gives you the de jure CB to conquer it if it's still independent. And it's very defensible, as it's surrounded by Northumberland, Scotland, and Ireland.

 

[Jon Rich]

Yeah, when the duchy drifts to the kingdom it becomes part of that kingdom's empire.

I'd strongly advise against giving any more than a single barony/county to a MR, unless you want an inevitable civil war versus someone who pound to pound, territory for territory will totally outclass you.

Flanders is fine just distribute the other counties to your other dukes first, or better yet use Mann, so it doesn't have the de jure claims.

You want to personally hold every castle in your capital duchy for the capital bonuses to your levies. (Hold all the castle baronies and counties and have a competent marshal raise levies and you'll be fielding doomstacks from your capital duchy alone.)

The strong vassal is purely ranked on # of territories held with the tie breaker being age, rank and troop strength are irrelevant. (Devs confirmed a few days ago in another thread.)

I'm using Flanders as my capital Duchy, not for the Republic. I'm keeping all the counties in Flanders for myself, but not the barony holdings, and here's why: This is going to be a far-flung empire, and I'm going to need those demesne slots, especially for rapid-response, right? Also, techpoints, I need techpoints spread. Finally, I'm not planning to build castles in Flanders. I've already put as many cities in Brugge as I can, because they give me lots of gold and Universities. My other planned counties are Middlesex, which I have, and maybe Essex, which I also have. It'll cut down a little on the vassal count.

One thing that I do have is a super-duke of Mercia who extends from Derby to Lincoln to Bedford to Hereford, which is kinda daunting, but he's also great for cutting down on my vassal count, and I obviously can't retract Counties from him at the moment because he'd rebel. I keep a pretty strong Retinue, though, which should counter him in the short term.


Thanks for the clarification on how "Powerful Vassals" are calculated.


The problem with Mann is that Scotland is Gavelkind, and one of my heir's younger brothers is going to get Mann. Scotland already has Mann, and the current King of Scotland holds it personally. I may or may not be able to change succession to Primogeniture when my heir takes Scotland, but I'm rather hoping that I can. In any case, revoking Mann is not something I want to do without justification. In addition, it's under Scotland, so it will have the -20 "Desires the Kingdom of Scotland" relationship malus in addition to its -20 "Wrong Government Type" relationship malus. Also, if I ever have to give away the Kingdom of Scotland to keep my vassal count low, I'll lose the Republic as a vassal.

It sounds that if I were to give a Duchy away, it should be Holland rather than Brittany, since Brittany is bigger., but Brittany would avoid the additional -20 malus for "Desires the Kingdom of...", and unlike Holland, it will never drift into England. Holland is currently de jure a part of the Kingdom of Frisia, which doesn't exist, but it will drift into England---and then have the -20 "Desires the Kingdom of England" malus. How would you deal with having a constant -40 relationship malus? Also, for whatever reason, the relationship malus for being a vassal King---feudal or merchant republic---doesn't show up in my testing (MR Brittany, Feudal Wales).

Also, wouldn't the Isle of Man be a bit under-powered? It doesn't have good tech development, being in the middle of nowhere, while Holland is right next to my high-tech capital, Brugge, and Brittany has benefited thus far in my game by having three of it's Counties, including its capital, in my demesne (I have an incredibly high demesne count thanks to centralization laws, Stewardship educations and Thrift focuses, constant "genius" characters (my current heir will be the first one not selected through Elective Succession, so I was always able to pick a Genius from among my kids---I've only married genius characters with my heirs. My current heir will be the first one educated with Diplomacy instead of Stewardship, because I have to get the Vassal Count up and because, well, governing a larger realm requires more finesse)).

I got sidetracked, sorry. So, Isle of Man, is it under-powered? It has low tech, and the city will only have a single barony and temple beneath it.

Lastly, about vassals of a merchant republic. If I do go with a multi-County Duchy, should the Counties beneath the Duchy be feudal, or merchant republics themselves?

 

[Jon Rich]

If you're in Britain, really the best place to put a vassal merchant republic is Mann. It's a single-county de jure duchy so you don't need to worry about it getting too powerful, and you can take it in a single war. In your case, your kid will be King of Scotland, which gives you the de jure CB to conquer it if it's still independent. And it's very defensible, as it's surrounded by Northumberland, Scotland, and Ireland.

Sorry, I meant to reply to your post as well, but I couldn't figure out how to do more than one quote. So, um, my response to you is included above as well.

 

[StarSword]

I'm using Flanders as my capital Duchy, not for the Republic. I'm keeping all the counties in Flanders for myself, but not the barony holdings, and here's why: This is going to be a far-flung empire, and I'm going to need those demesne slots, especially for rapid-response, right? Also, techpoints, I need techpoints spread. Finally, I'm not planning to build castles in Flanders. I've already put as many cities in Brugge as I can, because they give me lots of gold and Universities. My other planned counties are Middlesex, which I have, and maybe Essex, which I also have. It'll cut down a little on the vassal count.

One thing that I do have is a super-duke of Mercia who extends from Derby to Lincoln to Bedford to Hereford, which is kinda daunting, but he's also great for cutting down on my vassal count, and I obviously can't retract Counties from him at the moment because he'd rebel. I keep a pretty strong Retinue, though, which should counter him in the short term.

Yeah, Mercia tends to get friggin' huge from 769. Starts big and blobs outwards in all directions. In my game it even took over Gwynedd by before Ireland (me) started cutting away provinces. (Didn't hurt they were allied to me for most of the 8th and 9th centuries.)

If worst comes to worst and the Duke of Mercia rebels, you can revoke one of his duchies and cut him down to a more manageable size. Personally I like having a big Mercia in England; I'm contemplating creating England and naming Beorhthelm (the guy I installed to conquer the place) or his heir the king.

The problem with Mann is that Scotland is Gavelkind, and one of my heir's younger brothers is going to get Mann. Scotland already has Mann, and the current King of Scotland holds it personally. I may or may not be able to change succession to Primogeniture when my heir takes Scotland, but I'm rather hoping that I can. In any case, revoking Mann is not something I want to do without justification. In addition, it's under Scotland, so it will have the -20 "Desires the Kingdom of Scotland" relationship malus in addition to its -20 "Wrong Government Type" relationship malus. Also, if I ever have to give away the Kingdom of Scotland to keep my vassal count low, I'll lose the Republic as a vassal.

There's ways around this. You can deal with the gavelkind problem to seize the county by driving your brother into rebellion, after which you can revoke him. You can also use your chancellor to fabricate a claim on the county, which is a valid justification. Either way, after that you just revoke the mayor of the local city (Purt ny h-Inshey in my game) directly: you can survive the tyranny malus for one unjustified revocation, especially if he's just a lowly baron, but don't make a habit of it.

It sounds that if I were to give a Duchy away, it should be Holland rather than Brittany, since Brittany is bigger., but Brittany would avoid the additional -20 malus for "Desires the Kingdom of...", and unlike Holland, it will never drift into England. Holland is currently de jure a part of the Kingdom of Frisia, which doesn't exist, but it will drift into England---and then have the -20 "Desires the Kingdom of England" malus. How would you deal with having a constant -40 relationship malus? Also, for whatever reason, the relationship malus for being a vassal King---feudal or merchant republic---doesn't show up in my testing (MR Brittany, Feudal Wales).

Also, wouldn't the Isle of Man be a bit under-powered? It doesn't have good tech development, being in the middle of nowhere, while Holland is right next to my high-tech capital, Brugge, and Brittany has benefited thus far in my game by having three of it's Counties, including its capital, in my demesne (I have an incredibly high demesne count thanks to centralization laws, Stewardship educations and Thrift focuses, constant "genius" characters (my current heir will be the first one not selected through Elective Succession, so I was always able to pick a Genius from among my kids---I've only married genius characters with my heirs. My current heir will be the first one educated with Diplomacy instead of Stewardship, because I have to get the Vassal Count up and because, well, governing a larger realm requires more finesse)).

I got sidetracked, sorry. So, Isle of Man, is it under-powered? It has low tech, and the city will only have a single barony and temple beneath it.

It's worked fine for me. The small size actually helps: as a feudal ruler you can only have 10% of your realm each be controlled by count-level or above burghers or clerics (not sure how that's calculated), which limits how many republics you can make. As for the tech, well, pretty much any province that isn't part of your demesne will tend to lag behind your capital. Don't worry, tech spreads to and gets stolen by republics like it does to feudal rulers.

Lastly, about vassals of a merchant republic. If I do go with a multi-County Duchy, should the Counties beneath the Duchy be feudal, or merchant republics themselves?

Actually, county-level republics are called grand cities, but in any case I'd be inclined to leave them as feudal. The -20 relation malus works for the grand mayor and his vassals as much as it does for you and him: that is, he'll have trouble with his vassals to distract him from causing trouble for you.

Sorry, I meant to reply to your post as well, but I couldn't figure out how to do more than one quote. So, um, my response to you is included above as well.

No biggie. Just click Quote on multiple posts: you can insert them all at the same time.

 

[Conan The Librarian]

If you're in Britain, really the best place to put a vassal merchant republic is Mann. It's a single-county de jure duchy so you don't need to worry about it getting too powerful, and you can take it in a single war. In your case, your kid will be King of Scotland, which gives you the de jure CB to conquer it if it's still independent. And it's very defensible, as it's surrounded by Northumberland, Scotland, and Ireland.

I set up Mann as a pet MR but I've created a monster because of rubbish crusade mechanics! I holy warred the Abbasid caliph and won so I had a ceasfire with him. This meant that I couldnt join the crusade for jerusalem that was called, meaning that I couldnt get the kingdom for myself. The republic of Mann won the crusade. Again I was in a truce with the calihp when a crusade for greece was called so I couldnt join, and The Serene Republic of Jerusalem won that as well. Theyve got 50 k troops and over 1000 ships and are rolling in cash!

 

[StarSword]

I set up Mann as a pet MR but I've created a monster because of rubbish crusade mechanics! I holy warred the Abbasid caliph and won so I had a ceasfire with him. This meant that I couldnt join the crusade for jerusalem that was called, meaning that I couldnt get the kingdom for myself. The republic of Mann won the crusade. Again I was in a truce with the calihp when a crusade for greece was called so I couldnt join, and The Serene Republic of Jerusalem won that as well. Theyve got 50 k troops and over 1000 ships and are rolling in cash!

Um, oops?

 

[Jon Rich]

Yeah, Mercia tends to get friggin' huge from 769. Starts big and blobs outwards in all directions. In my game it even took over Gwynedd by before Ireland (me) started cutting away provinces. (Didn't hurt they were allied to me for most of the 8th and 9th centuries.)

If worst comes to worst and the Duke of Mercia rebels, you can revoke one of his duchies and cut him down to a more manageable size. Personally I like having a big Mercia in England; I'm contemplating creating England and naming Beorhthelm (the guy I installed to conquer the place) or his heir the king.


No biggie. Just click Quote on multiple posts: you can insert them all at the same time.

I'm liking it, too, to be honest. I can reliably raise a thousand vassals or so with a single click, and while he's really powerful now, in the future it should help keep my vassal count down. Though I really wish he didn't have Lincoln, since he doesn't have York, so I've got a Count out there, and even if I give him a Duchy, he'll have no shot at taking Mercia on. On the other hand, making Mercia even more powerful is probably not a good idea.

Yeah, Mercia tends to get friggin' huge from 769. Starts big and blobs outwards in all directions. In my game it even took over Gwynedd by before Ireland (me) started cutting away provinces. (Didn't hurt they were allied to me for most of the 8th and 9th centuries.)

It's worked fine for me. The small size actually helps: as a feudal ruler you can only have 10% of your realm each be controlled by count-level or above burghers or clerics (not sure how that's calculated), which limits how many republics you can make. As for the tech, well, pretty much any province that isn't part of your demesne will tend to lag behind your capital. Don't worry, tech spreads to and gets stolen by republics like it does to feudal rulers.

No biggie. Just click Quote on multiple posts: you can insert them all at the same time.

Would I even want to have multiple Republics? Won't they just get in the way of one another, and give less money than a single one would? If I did want multiple Republics, where would I put them? I'm going for Britannia/Modern Day France, with, of course, some of the Netherlands, specifically Flanders, Brabant, Holland, and perhaps Gelre....okay, so basically Frisia.

I suppose I could just seize the Balearic Islands, though!


Lastly, what about the de jure problem/the possibility that Scotland will eventually end up as a vassal Kingdom, either because of Vassal Limit or factions?

-20 from Wrong Government Type is fine, but adding the "Desires Kingdom of..." -20 sounds brutal. Mann will want Scotland, Holland will want Frisia (if I form it) or England (in 100 years or so, when it de jure drifts into England). Brittany, on the other hand, won't, because it's, well, a Kingdom. Though that would make it really powerful.....

Ah, one last thing! How do you keep a Merchant Republic in line, and, more to the point, keep them from expanding?

 

[StarSword]

I'm liking it, too, to be honest. I can reliably raise a thousand vassals or so with a single click, and while he's really powerful now, in the future it should help keep my vassal count down. Though I really wish he didn't have Lincoln, since he doesn't have York, so I've got a Count out there, and even if I give him a Duchy, he'll have no shot at taking Mercia on. On the other hand, making Mercia even more powerful is probably not a good idea.

Actually, since you yourself directly or indirectly control all the counties in York, you can create the duchy yourself and upgrade the count. And thereby basically guarantee that the Duke of York and Duke of Mercia will never be on speaking terms, -20 Desires the County of Lincoln. Sneaky redistricting tricks like this are one of the better ways to keep vassals under control: they'll be less likely to join each other's factions if they dislike each other.

Would I even want to have multiple Republics? Won't they just get in the way of one another, and give less money than a single one would? If I did want multiple Republics, where would I put them? I'm going for Britannia/Modern Day France, with, of course, some of the Netherlands, specifically Flanders, Brabant, Holland, and perhaps Gelre....okay, so basically Frisia.

I suppose I could just seize the Balearic Islands, though!

You do want to have some space between them so they don't get in each other's way too much (they'll fight over territory and screw up each other's trade zones) but whether the trade posts are controlled by one mega-republic or two smaller ones doesn't really matter. The biggest thing is, you want to fully upgrade the Merchant Enclave if they build a trade post in a county you personally control, since that increases the tax income of cities in the county.

Right now I have vassal republics in Mann and Brittany. They're competing a little bit for space (Briotaine has jumped coasts to Wessex, while Mhannin has built at least one trade post in France), but not as bad as I was afraid of.

Lastly, what about the de jure problem/the possibility that Scotland will eventually end up as a vassal Kingdom, either because of Vassal Limit or factions?

-20 from Wrong Government Type is fine, but adding the "Desires Kingdom of..." -20 sounds brutal. Mann will want Scotland, Holland will want Frisia (if I form it) or England (in 100 years or so, when it de jure drifts into England). Brittany, on the other hand, won't, because it's, well, a Kingdom. Though that would make it really powerful.....

Ah, one last thing! How do you keep a Merchant Republic in line, and, more to the point, keep them from expanding?

Barring absurdities like what happened to @Conan The Librarian up there, merchant republics tend to be fairly weak since cities don't provide as many troops as castles, and vassal feudal counts don't like their rich upstart overlords much. Other than that, you use the same tricks as with your other vassals for the most part, though you don't want to ever revoke the main duchy because that will destroy the republic entirely. You especially don't want an Ambitious doge: -20 opinion is manageable diplomatically, but -45 is either annoying due to the doge shirking taxes, or dangerous due to factionalism.

Another little trick I've used with Brittany is, if you use a big duchy instead but don't control all the counties before you create the republic, you can make the republic and then press the grand mayor's de jure CB for him and get a one-time opinion boost.

If all else fails, you can always, you know, help the succession along. I've had two Grand Mayors of Mhannin assassinated since creating the Republic. It's a little easier to do it with them than with normal feudal vassals since the patricians often hate the doge and an AI doge's spymaster tends to be one of the patricians rather than someone more loyal like his mother (who's usually dead by the time they're elected). Or if the doge rebels, either release him from prison for the Merciful opinion boost, or have him executed in whatever way suits your fancy and move on to the next guy. Getting the doge to ransom himself is counterproductive because of the Imprisoned opinion penalty.

As for expansion, this is another advantage of using a smaller duchy. Merchant republic built-in CBs are terrible: they first have to conquer a city where they have a trade post, then conquer the county. Since, as previously mentioned, they don't have as many troops, republics have to use mercenaries to bulk up their armies if they want to actually conquer something. The AI is a lot worse at husbanding its money properly than the player.

As for Scotland, the solution is simple: don't ever allow anybody else to have the title. Scotland doesn't really have enough duchies in it to make a dent in your vassal limit anyway; you're frankly better off spinning off England.

 

[FraterPsychonaut]

Actually, since you yourself directly or indirectly control all the counties in York, you can create the duchy yourself and upgrade the count. And thereby basically guarantee that the Duke of York and Duke of Mercia will never be on speaking terms, -20 Desires the County of Lincoln. Sneaky redistricting tricks like this are one of the better ways to keep vassals under control: they'll be less likely to join each other's factions if they dislike each other.


You do want to have some space between them so they don't get in each other's way too much (they'll fight over territory and screw up each other's trade zones) but whether the trade posts are controlled by one mega-republic or two smaller ones doesn't really matter. The biggest thing is, you want to fully upgrade the Merchant Enclave if they build a trade post in a county you personally control, since that increases the tax income of cities in the county.

Right now I have vassal republics in Mann and Brittany. They're competing a little bit for space (Briotaine has jumped coasts to Wessex, while Mhannin has built at least one trade post in France), but not as bad as I was afraid of.


Barring absurdities like what happened to @Conan The Librarian up there, merchant republics tend to be fairly weak since cities don't provide as many troops as castles, and vassal feudal counts don't like their rich upstart overlords much. Other than that, you use the same tricks as with your other vassals for the most part, though you don't want to ever revoke the main duchy because that will destroy the republic entirely. You especially don't want an Ambitious doge: -20 opinion is manageable diplomatically, but -45 is either annoying due to the doge shirking taxes, or dangerous due to factionalism.

Another little trick I've used with Brittany is, if you use a big duchy instead but don't control all the counties before you create the republic, you can make the republic and then press the grand mayor's de jure CB for him and get a one-time opinion boost.

If all else fails, you can always, you know, help the succession along. I've had two Grand Mayors of Mhannin assassinated since creating the Republic. It's a little easier to do it with them than with normal feudal vassals since the patricians often hate the doge and an AI doge's spymaster tends to be one of the patricians rather than someone more loyal like his mother (who's usually dead by the time they're elected). Or if the doge rebels, either release him from prison for the Merciful opinion boost, or have him executed in whatever way suits your fancy and move on to the next guy. Getting the doge to ransom himself is counterproductive because of the Imprisoned opinion penalty.

As for expansion, this is another advantage of using a smaller duchy. Merchant republic built-in CBs are terrible: they first have to conquer a city where they have a trade post, then conquer the county. Since, as previously mentioned, they don't have as many troops, republics have to use mercenaries to bulk up their armies if they want to actually conquer something. The AI is a lot worse at husbanding its money properly than the player.

As for Scotland, the solution is simple: don't ever allow anybody else to have the title. Scotland doesn't really have enough duchies in it to make a dent in your vassal limit anyway; you're frankly better off spinning off England.

This. You only ever want one top title anyway, and vassal limit will never even be an issue if you're smart in how you manage/gerrymander your dukes. (With the right laws in place you can hold the whole map at king tier this way.) Also if you want your vassal MR to focus on trade posts + infrastructure and leave the expanding to you (and maybe also your more loyalty inclined vassals), you have to keep their native levies limited (limit the counties/baronies held) so they can't ever dream about expansion without mercenaries (but since they aren't expanding they won't maintain a large enough war chest and instead build/upgrade trade posts, increasing your taxable revenue).

 

[MichaelStakely]

Would I even want to have multiple Republics? Won't they just get in the way of one another, and give less money than a single one would? If I did want multiple Republics, where would I put them? I'm going for Britannia/Modern Day France, with, of course, some of the Netherlands, specifically Flanders, Brabant, Holland, and perhaps Gelre....okay, so basically Frisia.

I suppose I could just seize the Balearic Islands, though!

If they're really close together, multiple Republics would compete with each other but that'll be a while down the road. Patricians start with roughly enough money to build three posts and the farther away the county is from the capital, the more the trade post costs to build. Besides the small size, Mann has the advantage of being at the center of a sea that has many counties are all within a short distance of each other. So Patricians there would be able to build several trade posts within a short period of time and they'd almost all get the trade bonus for being connected to the capital. There's always one oddball who will spend about half again as much to build a trade post farther away just for the sake of having the entire zone to themselves.

A Republic in the Balearics would expand more slowly since there's a smaller number of potential trade post sites within a short distance. If you created one on the other end of your empire from the Balearics, they wouldn't really start competing for quite a while. Navarre would be one option for that if you don't mind expanding a bit further to the south.

 

[Jon Rich]

You do want to have some space between them so they don't get in each other's way too much (they'll fight over territory and screw up each other's trade zones) but whether the trade posts are controlled by one mega-republic or two smaller ones doesn't really matter. The biggest thing is, you want to fully upgrade the Merchant Enclave if they build a trade post in a county you personally control, since that increases the tax income of cities in the county.

Right now I have vassal republics in Mann and Brittany. They're competing a little bit for space (Briotaine has jumped coasts to Wessex, while Mhannin has built at least one trade post in France), but not as bad as I was afraid of.

What's a Merchant Enclave?

Barring absurdities like what happened to @Conan The Librarian up there, merchant republics tend to be fairly weak since cities don't provide as many troops as castles, and vassal feudal counts don't like their rich upstart overlords much. Other than that, you use the same tricks as with your other vassals for the most part, though you don't want to ever revoke the main duchy because that will destroy the republic entirely. You especially don't want an Ambitious doge: -20 opinion is manageable diplomatically, but -45 is either annoying due to the doge shirking taxes, or dangerous due to factionalism.

Another little trick I've used with Brittany is, if you use a big duchy instead but don't control all the counties before you create the republic, you can make the republic and then press the grand mayor's de jure CB for him and get a one-time opinion boost.


As for Scotland, the solution is simple: don't ever allow anybody else to have the title. Scotland doesn't really have enough duchies in it to make a dent in your vassal limit anyway; you're frankly better off spinning off England.

I control all of Brittany. Also, if -45 is potentially dangerous, how do you deal with the -20 for wrong government type stacking with "Desires Kingdom of" malus (I think that is also -20, so it's -40, almost as bad as ambitious).

I don't want to spin off England because it's so dang big---I'm really leery of giving that much power to a single vassal. Also, England gives me Middlesex and Essex, both in my demesne, the former of which I've really built up to serve as a kind of second capital (Lots and lots of troops from Westminster, for one thing). Also Mercia has control of Northampton and Bedford, so I really don't want to risk them getting Essex and especially not Middlesex.

I was thinking I'd have vassal Kings of Ireland and Wales (and maybe Scotland) instead. I'd also spin off Brittany, either as a feudal Kingdom or a republican King-tier vassal.

So, if you've had both Brittany and Mann as republic vassals, how do you deal with Mann's "desire Kingdom of" opinion malus, and is Brittany too powerful as a Merchant Republic? Does it give them too much power to the point where they're seizing provinces?

 

[Jon Rich]

This. You only ever want one top title anyway, and vassal limit will never even be an issue if you're smart in how you manage/gerrymander your dukes. (With the right laws in place you can hold the whole map at king tier this way.) Also if you want your vassal MR to focus on trade posts + infrastructure and leave the expanding to you (and maybe also your more loyalty inclined vassals), you have to keep their native levies limited (limit the counties/baronies held) so they can't ever dream about expansion without mercenaries (but since they aren't expanding they won't maintain a large enough war chest and instead build/upgrade trade posts, increasing your taxable revenue).

Could you go into more detail about gerrymandering? How do I do it without creating vassals that are just too powerful?

 

[StarSword]

What's a Merchant Enclave?

It's one of the buildings in a trade post holding.

I control all of Brittany. Also, if -45 is potentially dangerous, how do you deal with the -20 for wrong government type stacking with "Desires Kingdom of" malus (I think that is also -20, so it's -40, almost as bad as ambitious).

In that case I'd personally not build a republic in Brittany and use Holland instead. They're further apart anyway, meaning more room to spread trade posts without running headlong each other.

One other tip, you definitely want to use a character of your own culture for your first doge (i.e. the mayor to whom you give the duchy). That will basically guarantee you'll almost never have a Foreigner malus, since the randomly generated merchant houses will be of the initial doge's culture.

So, if you've had both Brittany and Mann as republic vassals, how do you deal with Mann's "desire Kingdom of" opinion malus, and is Brittany too powerful as a Merchant Republic? Does it give them too much power to the point where they're seizing provinces?

Have a look at Grand Mayor Conallán of Mhannin, my Irish merchant prince, as an example:

So, I've got the Desires the Kingdom of Albain (k_scotland if ruled by an Irishman, renamed slightly) malus and the wrong government malus, plus a few other things. However, there's a whole bunch of other things mitigating it to where I actually have positive relations with him, including my traits Just, Gregarious and Charitable. I also gave him the honorary title Seneschal for an additional +10. I also enacted Free Investiture and maintain it against papal demands at all costs (I bought off the current pope when he asked). Though what puts me over the top at the moment is the use of Business Focus.

End result, reasonably positive opinion for a king only a year into his reign, enough that despite him wanting one of my titles he's still paying me 29.4 taxes (which is more than his competitor in Briotáine!). So, the -40 from Wrong Government Type and Desires Kingdom are both manageable, if not easily. But if you end up with an Ambitious grand mayor, or any vassal really, you start having problems. That's when I usually break out the assassins or hope my spymaster catches the guy plotting.

 

[StarSword]

Could you go into more detail about gerrymandering? How do I do it without creating vassals that are just too powerful?

What he means by gerrymandering is rearranging the counties so that the counts are under people other than the guy who should be their de jure owner. For example, you can see in the image that my mega-Duchy of Mercia controls the counties of Shrewsbury (which should be part of the Grand Duchy of Deheubarth-Powys), Norfolk (East Anglia), Oxford (Hwicce), and Northampton and Bedford (Essex). For each county that ought to be in a different duchy, Duke Beorhthelm of Mercia gets a -25 opinion malus from the duke of that different duchy. I got a bunch of these, mostly by accident: the Duke of Kent rules from Srath Èireann (Albanigh [Albany]), Gwynedd controls Dyfed and Glamorgan (Deheubarth), and Ulaidh [Ulster] owns Urmhumhain (Mumu [Munster]).

This also works against upper lieges, too: if you have a duke and you as his king control one of his de jure counties, he'll dislike you for it.

 

[MichaelStakely]

Could you go into more detail about gerrymandering? How do I do it without creating vassals that are just too powerful?

Split titles for one thing.

Say that you're Flann, High King of Ireland and have Dublin, Kildare, Connacht, Breithne, Leinster, and Ossory as your personal demesne with the Dukes of Ulster (we'll call him Niall) and Munster (who had weird parents and is called Frank) as your vassals. Now, say that you inherit a nice chunk of England as well and need to cut down on your holdings.

One approach would be to give Niall Connacht and Ossory while giving Frank Breithne and Leinster. Then give Niall the Duchy of Leinster and give Frank the Duchy of Connacht. So you have two Dukes of roughly equal power that hate each other. Or, if Niall is a lot stronger than Frank because his holdings are in better shape, you can give Frank most of the counties to put him on an equal footing and give Niall the titles. If Frank usurps one of those titles, all the better.

 

[Jon Rich]

It's one of the buildings in a trade post holding.


In that case I'd personally not build a republic in Brittany and use Holland instead. They're further apart anyway, meaning more room to spread trade posts without running headlong each other.


Have a look at Grand Mayor Conallán of Mhannin, my Irish merchant prince, as an example:

So, I've got the Desires the Kingdom of Albain (k_scotland if ruled by an Irishman, renamed slightly) malus and the wrong government malus, plus a few other things. However, there's a whole bunch of other things mitigating it to where I actually have positive relations with him, including my traits Just, Gregarious and Charitable. I also gave him the honorary title Seneschal for an additional +10. I also enacted Free Investiture and maintain it against papal demands at all costs (I bought off the current pope when he asked). Though what puts me over the top at the moment is the use of Business Focus.

End result, reasonably positive opinion for a king only a year into his reign, enough that despite him wanting one of my titles he's still paying me 29.4 taxes (which is more than his competitor in Briotáine!). So, the -40 from Wrong Government Type and Desires Kingdom are both manageable, if not easily. But if you end up with an Ambitious grand mayor, or any vassal really, you start having problems. That's when I usually break out the assassins or hope my spymaster catches the guy plotting.

Wow, thank you for the image, that actually really helps. Though---I hate to harp on this, but I'd rather that than end up with a terrible headache later----if I don't have the fortune to have a Gregarious and Just character, and/or either my character or the doge are not charitable, that nearly brings you to zero. I also won't have Gavelkind, so that does bring me to zero.

As for being "farther away from Mann," that's not really a consideration at the moment since I don't own it. There's also---and I can't believe I forgot to mention it---I don't actually own Holland, a vassal does. I do, however, own multiple Counties in Brittany as well as the King title.

I guess what I'm asking is, how much of a pain in the ass is (or, to look at it from the other direction, "how managable is") it to have Brittany as a Republic, both in general and in relative terms to Holland? I won't have to deal with the "Desires Kingdom of" malus with Holland for a good 90 years (unless I create Frisia, but I don't see why I would), so that's something...

I'm definitely willing to eat a tyranny modifier for seizing Holland at some point (preferably when my current ruler is old and ill) if you tell me that it's a real chore keeping Brittany in check, though....


I do apologize for the extended back-and-forth on this, but this has been by far the longest CK2 game I've played in a good long while, and I don't want to screw it up now.

 

[MichaelStakely]

I guess what I'm asking is, how much of a pain in the ass is (or, to look at it from the other direction, "how managable is") it to have Brittany as a Republic, both in general and in relative terms to Holland? I won't have to deal with the "Desires Kingdom of" malus with Holland for a good 90 years (unless I create Frisia, but I don't see why I would), so that's something...

In my experience, Republics tend not to be a huge concern when it comes to revolts; sure, they could hire tons of mercenaries if they want, but they tend not to do that in actual practice as members of a faction. Plus they have the built-in weaknesses of having cities as their primary holding and large courts. So you'll siege down their counties fairly quickly and have a pretty good shot of getting valuable hostages in the process.

It's also pretty easy to create a Republic with a weak military thanks to internal shenanigans anyway since any feudal vassals they have would have the Wrong Government Type malus against them and any Burghers won't give them much in the way of levies.