De Jure Drift and Vassal Limit over the long term

[Ilion]

I'd like to hear others' opinions concerning using de jure drift to double (or more) the de jure territoy of one's kingdom title, especially as relates to hitting the vassal limit after you transition to an empire.

For instance, if you become a successfully growing empire, eventually you'll have to start consolidating ducal vassals under kingly vassals, so as to stay under the vassal limit. BUT, if your de jure kingdom now contains 15 or 20 duchies, rather that (say) its original 5 or 7, well, that's 15 or 20 dukes you pretty much have to keep as direct vassals. For, if you give one of them the kingdom title, he'll hate you because he wants the part of the kingdom you've kept for own demesne.

Perhaps you can transfer their vassalage to some of vassal kings (I don't recall whether you can in this situation) ... but then, they'll start to de jure drift into the kingdom of their new liege ... in which case, there seems little long-term point in allowing them to drift into your kingdom in the first place.

Another approach that I know will work is to gift the individual dukes in your de jure with one of the vassal kingdom titles. But, again, those duchies will begin to drift into these kingdoms (plus, the new king will probably piss off all his new vassals as he tries to acquire the kingdom's de jure capital as his own demesne).

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Alternately, might is be better long term to engineer that the non-demesne duchies of your original kingdom drift into other kingdoms, such that eventually the kingdom and your demesne are so-extensive?

 

[jonjowett]

For, if you give one of them the kingdom title, he'll hate you because he wants the part of the kingdom you've kept for own demesne.

Not necessarily. He only wants titles that are one level up or down from his current level. So, if your demesne is an entire de jure duchy but the duchy title does not exist then he will have no opinion modifier for that duchy.

For example: if you are emperor of Britannia; your demesne is the entire duchy of Essex; the title of duke of Essex does not exist; and you give a vassal the viceroyalty of England; then that vassal will not want any of your holdings in Essex. (But he will want the empire of Britannia.)

Example 2: if you are emperor of Britannia; your demesne is the entire duchy of Essex and the county of York; the title of duke of Essex does not exist; the title of duke of York is owned by a vassal; and you give a different vassal the viceroyalty of England; then the viceroy of England will not want any of your holdings. The duke of York will want York... but he's "buried" under the viceroy of England, so you don't care.

Basically, make sure that the duchies that contain your demesne counties either don't exist or are "buried" under viceroys.

 

[Ilion]

Thanks, that was very helpful. And, now that you explain ti, I half-way knew it, bur hadn't made the full connections.

I'm playing as Saxony (with the CK2+ mod). I've decided to make Mecklemburg (which is currently in Pomerania) my capital, and possibly with Holstein as an extension of the demesne. I'm intentionally not creating the Holstein title. And rather than usurping the Mecklemburg title from the foreign holder, I'm working at tearing his realm apart with the end goal of unlanding him, so that the title expires.

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Do you have any thoughts on the pros/cons of "bulking up" your de jure realm via drift?

 

[jonjowett]

Do you have any thoughts on the pros/cons of "bulking up" your de jure realm via drift?

Honestly, it's usually too much trouble. There are some very small gains from having your vassals be de jure rather than de facto - but the time and effort required to drift a duchy into a different kingdom is excessive IMO. (Especially if you're an emperor!) Drifting kingdoms into your empire is relatively straightforward (because you're bigger and more resilient to threats), but you still have to wait 100 years.

However, custom kingdoms and empires are a great way to create larger-than-normal de jure realms. Unfortunately, you can only do this once per game (unless you can find a way to lose your kingdom/empire).

 

[DPS]

It's fun to let duchies drift into your kingdom, and there are some minor game-play advantages, but yeah, if you plan on eventually becoming an empire, don't get carried away with it or you'll have problems with the vassal limit once you get really big.

 

[Ilion]

Drifting kingdoms into your empire is relatively straightforward (because you're bigger and more resilient to threats), but you still have to wait 100 years.

With the CK2+ mod, that has been reduced to 50 years.

However, custom kingdoms and empires are a great way to create larger-than-normal de jure realms. Unfortunately, you can only do this once per game (unless you can find a way to lose your kingdom/empire).

That was my understanding. But, when I've created either a custom kingdom or custom empire, I've never seen them start out with de jure lands, but instead had to do the drift thing. Pehaps that also an effect of CK2+.

 

[DPS]

when I've created either a custom kingdom or custom empire, I've never seen them start out with de jure lands, but instead had to do the drift thing. Pehaps that also an effect of CK2+.

It must be, 'cause when I've created custom kingdoms and empires, they start out with de jure land.

 

[Ilion]

It's fun to let duchies drift into your kingdom, and there are some minor game-play advantages, but yeah, if you plan on eventually becoming an empire, don't get carried away with it or you'll have problems with the vassal limit once you get really big.

I've decided to claim the German Empire, rather than create a custom one. Since I currently control less than 35% of the empire, it will be a while before I can create it. And, of course, if some duchies drift into my Saxony kingdom, that changes the percentages.

The main thing I've been working on is eliminating the Vikings: I control all of Denmark, over 1/2 of Sweden and a duchy in Norway. But, of course, other opportunities and/or vassal wars have added lands in Germany and Poland: I hold the area from the Rhine to the Vistula and the Baltic coast south to Bavaria and Bohemia.

 

[jonjowett]

That was my understanding. But, when I've created either a custom kingdom or custom empire, I've never seen them start out with de jure lands, but instead had to do the drift thing. Pehaps that also an effect of CK2+.

I don't know about CK2+, because I usually play without mods. However, even in the base game, the requirement for them to start with de jure land is somewhat opaque. (Checking whether I will be granted the expected de jure territory is one of my major reasons for save-scumming. That, and checking the map colour of my new title.) It's strange that you've never had any de jure territory though. Usually you end up with at least a couple of duchies. So, it might be a CK2+ thing.

My ad-hoc experience (in the base game) is that a duchy/kingdom is only added to your de jure kingdom/empire if you hold (or have a vassal hold) all county+ titles in that duchy/kingdom. (Baronies don't seem to matter, thank goodness!) If a duchy/kingdom doesn't exist, you need to create it (or it won't be de jure included in your custom kingdom). Similarly, if outsiders hold these titles, you need to usurp them.

 

[DPS]

My ad-hoc experience (in the base game) is that a duchy/kingdom is only added to your de jure kingdom/empire if you hold (or have a vassal hold) all county+ titles in that duchy/kingdom. (Baronies don't seem to matter, thank goodness!) If a duchy/kingdom doesn't exist, you need to create it (or it won't be de jure included in your custom kingdom). Similarly, if outsiders hold these titles, you need to usurp them.

Yes, I believe this is correct. If you don't completely own a duchy or kingdom, it won't become part of your new realm as best as I can tell from experience (I almost always create a custom kingdom or empire anymore).

 

[Ilion]

Here is what I've observed about drift --

If you are a king
- a duchy will not drift into your primary kingdom unless you control all the counties of the duchy
-- even IF you control all the counties, if the duchy title exists and is not held by you or a vassal, then the duchy will not drift into your kingdom
-- if you control all the counties, and you also hold the kingdom title to which it belongs, then the duchy will not drift into your primary kingdom


If you are an emperor
- a duchy will not drift into your empire unless you control all the duchies and all the counties of its de jure kingdom
-- if you control the entire de jure kingdom, and the kingdom title does not exist, then the entire kingdom will drift both into your empire and into your primary kingdom
--- but if the kingdom is already a de jure part of your empire, then it does not drift into your primary kingdom
-- even IF you control the entire de jure kingdom, if the kingdom title exists and is not held by you or a vassal, then the de jure duchies of that kingdom will not drift into your empire
-- if you control all the counties, and the duchy title is held by one of your vassal kings, then the duchy will drift into the kingdom he holds
-- if you control all the counties, and the duchy title is held by *you*, then the duchy does not drift into your primary kingdom
-- if you control all the counties, and you personally hold the counties, and the duchy title does not exist, then the duchy ==may or may not== drift into your primary kingdom (there is some further complication I haven't noticed in why two seemingly identical situations resolve differently)