De-eventizing HoI

[out]

I was reading the latest dev diary, which covered internal politics. I like the new party system mentioned, but I think what's more important is something the diary mentioned only in passing: that HoI2 is too event-heavy and static.

Looking at the events in HoI2, I see no reason why most of them couldn't have been part of the basic game rules rather than special one-shot events:

"Gearing up for war" could easily be modeled into the new party system: if your neighbour is spending heavily in militarization, or if he suddenly gains a lot of belligerence, then your pro-war parties should get a corresponding boost.

The various "incidents" that start wars could be built into the diplo-espionage system simply as "create a casus belli".

The various "surprise attacks" and "switch sides" event should be integrated into a less restrictive diplo system (see this thread).

The surrender events and the various pacts and so on should be integrated into an expanded diplomacy system: on one hand it should allowed more detailed negotiations, on the other it should allow multilateral deals rather than strictly bilateral.

Neither should the Spanish Civil War interventions be unique to SCW: major powers should be able to "intervene" on any conflict they hold an interest in.

In all, HoI will always be "incomplete" if these events are treated as freak accidents rather than likely occurances during an unstable time and modeled into the game appropriately. Yeah I know HoI is a war game, but what is war if not an extension of diplomacy?

 

[Alex_brunius]

How would you suggest modelling the Russo-Japanese border skirmishes without and event leading to their Non agression pact?

How can you include the Red army officer purge in a game where such things on larger scales are forbidden if not by an exception event?

Events add alot of flavour, nice pictures and much interresting historical information to read and important upfront choises to make. Taking them all away would mean a more boring game.

 

[out]

To begin with, border skirmishes should first of all be made possible (again see the attack without DoW thread). As for how that would lead to non-aggression pact, it's admitedly bit of a twist, but with a more robust negotiation options it's not impossible. E.g. offer to settle borders in return for non-aggression pact.

The Great Purge can partially be modeled if each mil. leader also have a party affiliation. In a authoritarian country dominated by one party, the ruling party could initiate a purge that would lead to similar result.

But I'm not suggesting taking them all away, just that they should be part of what's possible within the game rules. The flip side of your argument is that anything that deviates from pre-scripted events will be extremely rigid and boring.

Idealy, we could keep all these nice event pictures and text when something similar is triggered without relying on the actual event scripts for the consequences. To make the scripted events merely cosmetic, sort of speak.

 

[Panjer]

Events should be more dynamic, but they shouldn't be removed.

I hope modding events will be easier than HoI2, imagine the mods that could be made!

 

[Alex_brunius]

Events should be more dynamic, but they shouldn't be removed.

I hope modding events will be easier than HoI2, imagine the mods that could be made!

I agree that dynamic events is the way to go. Imagine a general UK event chain for the retreat out of france.

Dynamic name:
If they don't end up in Dunkerque but in say Calais it can be called the miracle of Calais (name = "The miracle of " [province=x])
If you don't manage to get them out in time (lost to enciclement) the event would point towards another event (name = "Disaster at " [province=x])

Dynamic options:
Do you have any tanks or artillery brigades to leave behind? If not you don't need to make any hard choises about wether french refugees (no dissent) or weapons (more weapons) need to be brought back.

Dynamic results
Both players involved could get results based on dynamic triggers. UK might have all Armored, motor and heavy equipment brigades involved converted to plain infantry. And the more equipment left behind the more free stuff for the Germans. They could use them to set up costal forts or perhaps even get new brigades/divisions of their own if they pay the manpower costs.

This is just an example of what dynamic events can do. Im no event modder but any investment from Paradox in giving us more options or an easier time to mod event is sure to be payed back 10-fold by the mods we will see.

 

[unmerged(44030)]

This is just an example of what dynamic events can do. Im no event modder but any investment from Paradox in giving us more options or an easier time to mod event is sure to be payed back 10-fold by the mods we will see.

Brilliant idea. That kind of an event system would really let the player to change history, since players are still given events even when they don't play the same way it went in real life.

 

[THE_SPLIT]

Was this not the discussion that was also popular in EU3 vs Eu2. I think the result was that people were split into two camps with a very large and vocal minority demanding more historical accuracy and the rest wanting something along the lines that you have suggested?

 

[JoeGiavani]

If you could build a dynamic model of the entire earth during the second world war that always happened the same way, I'd be very impressed. Oh and it has to run on a desktop computer.
Good coding!

 

[out]

If you could build a dynamic model of the entire earth during the second world war that always happened the same way, I'd be very impressed. Oh and it has to run on a desktop computer.
Good coding!

That'd be pretty much impossible. But that's not what I'm asking for. I'm asking for the ability to do what can only be done through event now. I want to, for example, be able to drasticaly change a political setting (slider) without pre-scripted event, send troops to aid non-allied country, betray my allies, create false casus belli, etc.

I don't expect the AI to act historical down to these details, and anyway the HoI2 AI doesn't even use many of the diplo-espionage features. That's quite aside from the issue.

 

[Battlecry]

From what I've heard, the "decision" system (from EUIII: In Nomine) will be implemented in HOI3 - Decisions are much like events, but they allow you to choose when to fire them (rather than simply having an event pop-up). So while they may be moving away from events, this doesn't necessarily mean anything will be lost - decisions can accomplish everything events do, but allow you to choose exactly when.

 

[potski]

From what I've heard, the "decision" system (from EUIII: In Nomine) will be implemented in HOI3 - Decisions are much like events, but they allow you to choose when to fire them (rather than simply having an event pop-up). So while they may be moving away from events, this doesn't necessarily mean anything will be lost - decisions can accomplish everything events do, but allow you to choose exactly when.

You can see some examples of Decisions and the types available in the EUIII Wiki.

EUIII: In Nomine also has Missions and you can also see some examples of Russsian Missions in the Wiki.

I certainly think these could be adapted to allow Germany to annex Austria, to claim the Sudetenland from Czechoslovakia etc. For the Soviet Union to have a Decision to "Purge the Officer Corps" - lose many generals, but give you political benefits.

As for the Soviet/Japan border "skirmishes" in the Battle of Kalkhin Gol (or what the Japanese coyly call the "Nomonhan Incident") a Japanese Division was destroyed. The HOI2 Event suddenly popping up would have you believe this was a single thing that happened one day. It didn't - it took place over several weeks, and can easily be modelled in HOI3:

1. Mongolia gets a Mission to capture Nomonhan and accepts it.
2. A Mongolian Div consisting of a single Cav.Bde with poor equipment crosses the border with Manchuria (Japan Puppet) and captures the undefended province.
3. A few days later a Japan Inf. Div (2 Inf Bge's) arrives from a few provinces away, attacks the Mongolian Cav, drives them back and recaptures the province.
4. A few weeks later Gen. Zhukov turns up with (IIRC) three Soviet Inf.Divs (1 Inf Bde and 1 Art.Bde in each) and two Arm.Divs (1 Med.Arm.Bde in each), with air support. He attacks and uses the Armour to outflank the Jap. Inf.Div and destroys it in a battle lasting several days.
5. Japan decides not to counter-attack, as Zhukov has even more forces in reserve he can use. It's not in Japan's interest to fight (the province has no strategic value) and starts to negotiate peace. A Non-Agression Pact is signed.

Of course, the last might not happen and the situation might escalate to all-out war. Nothing wrong with that, could have happened.

 

[unmerged(123225)]

It will sure be a difficult decision for Paradox in terms of how much will be historical and how much freedom there ought to be for the players.

I think these must be considered when making the game:
-historical events/what-if events
-historical setting of the time
-historical progression vs. dynamic progession

For example in HoI2 it was rather boring that you pretty much knew in advance when Germany will start the war and how they were going invade and in what order. But at the same time when things didn't go as they did in history you very much ended up in a boring game where Germany goes peaceful and nothing happens. I also know from my experiences of playing Making History where there are virtually no historical events. I got sick of that game because you always ended up with wacky alliances and totally random explosion of the world.

Hopefully Paradox will either: Give player the option of going historical or not on the start of the game much like EU3 historical monarch setting - or - design each nations setting and goals as historically as they were so that things play out much like history did so that we don't have a game where Hitler decides to become a hippie after annexing Austria and Czechoslovakia.

 

[Battlecry]

much like EU3 historical monarch setting

Not the best example perhaps - this feature doesn't really work properly in EU3.

 

[kstanb]

HOI was great precisely because of those events that "allowed" the AI to start WW2 and also gave flavor to the game.

Please don't mess with a system that works well. HOI timeframe is only 12 years, so, having the kind of outcomes you see in EU3 like unrealistic alliances, unrealistic wars, long periods of peace, crazy expansions, will ruin the game.

The dynamic EU3 style works when you have 300 years to play, not with only 12

 

[Battlecry]

HOI was great precisely because of those events that "allowed" the AI to start WW2 and also gave flavor to the game.

Please don't mess with a system that works well. HOI timeframe is only 12 years, so, having the kind of outcomes you see in EU3 like unrealistic alliances, unrealistic wars, long periods of peace, crazy expansions, will ruin the game.

The dynamic EU3 style works when you have 300 years to play, not with only 12

The "dynamic Eu3 style" is written to work well for a 300 year game - if written a different way (there is still AI chance & MTTH much like events) that system can easily do everything the HOI2 system could, while adding something extra for the player. Simply changing an event's MTTH and ai_chance can make the game as historical/'dynamic' as you wish.

 

[Alexander Seil]

Sadly, battlecry, some people will never be convinced.

 

[Battlecry]

Sadly, battlecry, some people will never be convinced.

Indeed.

I will say that decisions and missions work very much like events - the AI can be made to perform them on a certain date, and to choose a particular option 99.9% of the time. The dynamics come in only when the player wants to do something different - for the AI the results are/can be identical.

Do not confuse "dynamism" with a lack of historicity - I'm sure if the player does nothing drastically ahistoric, the AI won't either - but the AI should be able to deal witht he situation if the player does choose to do something different.

 

[out]

I don't see why events integrating into the game rule means reduction in historicity for so many people.

Events in HoI2 could be roughly separated into 2 categories: one that push the AI toward a certain direction (relation change, DoW, alliance, etc.), and the others that cause effects that are otherwise impossible within the game rule (gearing up for war, core province changes, state partitioning, etc.) I think the second category should be completely eliminated. But that's not to say that these events shouldn't take place, but that these impossible actions should all be made possible so that all events would belong to the first category.

I haven't played In Nomine so I don't know how decisions work, but it sounds like a move in the right direction. But from what I've read it's still essentially static: correct me if I'm wrong, but the decisions are still pre-scripted, aren't they?

Take the example of Gearing Up for War: if your neighbour suddenly builds up a huge army and starts gobbling up other neighbours, then you bloody well should get the option to make significant change to your policy sliders no matter which country you are. Yes you can write this event for every single country, but it's simply more elegant and more truly dynamic for this kind of interactivity to be built into the design.

 

[Battlecry]

correct me if I'm wrong, but the decisions are still pre-scripted, aren't they?

Yes, they are.

 

[contecorti]

I remember a post by Johan which said that a game like HOI3 could be more history-driven than EU3 because of its stricter time limits.

I personally think that events are really needed and add a lot of flavour to this game, and i'm also for dynamic events not scripted one. I personally don't want though to play a game with UK and Germany allied vs USA and Italy, because i want to play a game about WWII not a fictional one so i really hope that a lot of historical events are included and above everything else every country has a specific AI so they behave like they did in WWII.