DDRJake twitter teaser - idea groups suggestion/discussion
- Thread starter lolada
- Start date
-
We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.
I think every group needs to give some special feature. Say, Espionage finisher giving "Can chain claim" modifier; Naval finisher giving "Can Raid Coasts", etc. Their incremental modifiers should be stronger enough not to feel like marginal buffs (10% Tax Modifier? nah, go at least 20%).
Last edited:
That's assuming the idea groups are a in vacuum, is it not? If so, I disagree that you can compare them that way, this isn't like comparing offensive to defensive, we're dealing with two completely different categories of idea groups. You talk about single player balance, so I will compare them that way.
Naval pros:
Ship durability +10%, heavy combat ability +20%, morale +10%, and engagement +10%. All of these are huge, and greatly contribute to your navy's ability to obliterate other navies. The rest are fire/shock pips which are nice and all but are inferior to maneuver pips, and situational/irrelevant things like prestige from combat; +25% galley combat ability in the open sea doesn't help you at all, and if you're invading an inland sea from elsewhere, you're not going to build galleys to do so, you're just going to use your heavies.
Naval cons:
you're using mil points for this, mil points that could be spent on defensive, offensive, quantity, or quality ideas, and quality offers ship durability +5% and naval morale +10%, so you get about 37.5% of the benefits of taking naval, (falsely) assuming all things are equal, plus the important benefits of troop combat ability and discipline, plus much better policies. When was the last time you took a naval policy? When was the last time you took a quality policy?
Reasons to take Naval in SP:
You're about to fight GB within the next 20 years and you can't build enough heavies to beat them with sheer numbers.
Maritime pros:
+2 maneuver, +50% forcelimit modifier, repair in coastal sea zones. +2 maneuver is great, it increases how many ships can fight, increases the speed of your fleet, and increases your chance to capture enemy ships. I'm sure I don't need to tell you that having a bigger deathstack of ships is a good thing, there's a reason why quantity is considered so good. Granted, repairing in coastal sea zones is more QoL than anything, since you can just leave your ships blockading someone and they'll repair, and you don't need to micro them in and out of ports at the tick of the month, and they can repair on the other side of the globe without hassle. The rest of Maritime's ideas are nice for navies, like reduced ship cost and faster repair, but they don't matter too much. In addition, Maritime uses dip points, so it doesn't have to compete with things like offensive.
Maritime cons:
It doesn't actually increase the fighting ability of ships, unless you consider +1 naval tradition to be a combat advantage. Your ships will always be inferior, much like how relying on only quantity as your military idea doesn't make you kill things better.
Reasons to take Maritime in SP:
You want a huge navy that can kill opponents with sheer numbers.
The real problem is there is no reason to take either aside from RP or the niche scenario of needing to go toe to toe with GB because you have no way of landing troops on them, but if you were to take either, you'd be more likely to use dip points on a navy rather than mil points, yes? We need a reason to use navies, period, and currently there isn't one. That's also partly why making Maritime into the galley idea group is a terrible idea - who even uses galleys? Ottomans, Italy, Aragon, Maghreb, Mamluks. Who else uses galleys? Japan? Ming? Both have to deal with the open oceans rather quickly, so the only reason to have galleys would be to defend home, and have a separate navy with heavies to attack, which is just silly. Baltic nations? They have to deal with outside threats like GB, so unless they're planning to keep the galleys at home, and have a separate fleet to attack, just like Japan/Ming, they have no reason to use them. So it really just boils down to the Mediterranean nations. Why on earth would you change an idea group to essentially be exclusive for Mediterranean nations, especially one as niche as the naval version of Quantity? The only way that could work is if you made it so galleys didn't take a penalty for not fighting in the inland sea if you took the idea group, and doesn't that defeat the entire purpose of galleys?
Last edited:
Add some new ones to account for all the new modifiers and interactions that have been added to the game.
Similar to the mod I made (link in siggy)
Similar to the mod I made (link in siggy)
There's no way to make ideas better than the current set for world conquest. They need to start balancing the game for NOT world conquest.
I briefly thought about that too, but a 4th mana would also need estates, development, tech, advisors and other things associated with it.
It would not just be an idea balance, it would be a major overhaul of nearly the whole game.
Admin needs to lose the ccr the group needs to be about maintaining a big empire not expanding
Humanist should swap the idea cost with innovatives one possible advisers
Quality needs to lose some of the naval buffs and gain something related to forts
Defensive needs to be a little less front loaded
Exploration vs expansion needs to be a valid choice maybe expansion has the ccr from admin
Quantity needs to be more manpower heavy with a little ICA put in however this needs to be less than quality’s ICA buff10 vs 20 or something like that
Humanist should swap the idea cost with innovatives one possible advisers
Quality needs to lose some of the naval buffs and gain something related to forts
Defensive needs to be a little less front loaded
Exploration vs expansion needs to be a valid choice maybe expansion has the ccr from admin
Quantity needs to be more manpower heavy with a little ICA put in however this needs to be less than quality’s ICA buff10 vs 20 or something like that
I hope they definetely change at least all the completely useless "-10% recruitment time" ideas, might as well be no bonus at all...
If Grand Strategy games had dump stats like RPGs do, this would be it
Right now, Influence ideas, the "vassal play" idea group, has ideas that boost the power of vassals, yet also lets you integrate vassals more quickly. If I'm integrating all my vassals ASAP, having more income from vassals is not a huge deal in the long term... Influence should be split into two groups, one that focuses on assimilating vassals and integrating them into your country, and another that massively boosts the power of vassal states in order to actually make them worth keeping in the long term despite being piloted by the AI.
Influence can be the "assimilation" and soft power idea group while the new one is called Hegemony ideas or something.
Also as an aside, I'd like to echo the sentiment that every idea group should have at least one unique thing. Something that isn't even a modifier, or something you can't get anywhere else, or if you can it's very rare. For example Espionage, while pretty useless, is one of the more interesting idea groups to me because it unlocks new diplomatic actions. What if other idea groups did this, too?
Influence can be the "assimilation" and soft power idea group while the new one is called Hegemony ideas or something.
- Take Influence's Vassal Income and Force Limit and move them to Hegemony. Replace with bonuses that help integrating subjects, getting royal marriages, or engaging in aggressive diplomacy.
- For Hegemony, throw in a modifier that lowers development cost in subjects' provinces by a significant amount.
- Add a modifier that lowers troop maintenance for your vassals, maybe this will make them actually raise an army instead of sitting at 0 troops.
- Basically just make this idea group have jacked up bonuses compared to other groups, BUT they only affect vassals/you if you use vassals. This makes it an actual choice to spec into a vassal sphere rather than just integrate every time. The modifiers are strong to make it worth playing alongside the dumb AI, kind of like how Marches are supposed to work.
Also as an aside, I'd like to echo the sentiment that every idea group should have at least one unique thing. Something that isn't even a modifier, or something you can't get anywhere else, or if you can it's very rare. For example Espionage, while pretty useless, is one of the more interesting idea groups to me because it unlocks new diplomatic actions. What if other idea groups did this, too?
Expansion group has too many useless idea.
I would fix in this way:
2 colonists
1 merchant
20 settler growth
+3 development in every colonized province
20% manpower in overseas, trade company or new world provinces
20% naval force limit for overseas, trade company new world ans Cn provinces.
Can fabricate cb to entire states in overseas, new world and trade company regions
I would fix in this way:
2 colonists
1 merchant
20 settler growth
+3 development in every colonized province
20% manpower in overseas, trade company or new world provinces
20% naval force limit for overseas, trade company new world ans Cn provinces.
Can fabricate cb to entire states in overseas, new world and trade company regions
boooo, I gotta have my -10% recruitment/shipbuilding times and -25% state maintenance.
also kind of funny how Influence and not Expansion has the -20% AE reduction.
Make some sense that Administrative should "administer" existing country - so improve internal workings, reduce expenses, improve efficiency, government, stability, unrest, states etc.. - ... and Expansion expand... so AE reduction, coring things, reductions, coring range.. mercs or some army things should be in expansion - that you want the group if you go for wide play.
Could use one to expand and second to stabilize and improve country. This mechanics is something that Religious and Humanism resemble... Religious is great for expansion and Humanism nicely pacifies all rebels. Now all these groups are admin unfortunately...
Maybe consider shuffling these groups between admin/diplo/mil categories a bit.. why do we have these admin/diplo/mil categories anyway?
Could use one to expand and second to stabilize and improve country. This mechanics is something that Religious and Humanism resemble... Religious is great for expansion and Humanism nicely pacifies all rebels. Now all these groups are admin unfortunately
...Maybe consider shuffling these groups between admin/diplo/mil categories a bit.. why do we have these admin/diplo/mil categories anyway?
Religious need a major buff, either one more missionary and conversion bonus or some unrest/culture unrest reduction.
Espionage, Expansion and Maritime need a complete rework, take the name and scrap every idea and rebuild it from the ground up.
For expansion an interesting solution would be to move the admin ccr and mercenary bonuses to it, making admin a more balanced group similar to diplomatic, adding unrest and corruption reduction would be a bonus.
Maritime is pointless i would scrap it for a second diplo idea about colonization.
Espionage is doomed by the espionage option being locked behind tech.
What i would mostly like to see is the ai idea group pick be more randomized, or grant the player an option to allow more free ai (E.G more colonizers)
Espionage, Expansion and Maritime need a complete rework, take the name and scrap every idea and rebuild it from the ground up.
For expansion an interesting solution would be to move the admin ccr and mercenary bonuses to it, making admin a more balanced group similar to diplomatic, adding unrest and corruption reduction would be a bonus.
Maritime is pointless i would scrap it for a second diplo idea about colonization.
Espionage is doomed by the espionage option being locked behind tech.
What i would mostly like to see is the ai idea group pick be more randomized, or grant the player an option to allow more free ai (E.G more colonizers)
My most-taken group is probably humanist. I don't tend to enjoy dealing with rebels, and humanism more or less just completely eliminates them. My least-taken group is probably espionage, which has the double sin of being both underpowered and boring. Naval and maritime are also both underpowered but I find it occasionally fun to stack as many naval buffs as possible, and rule the seas with hilarious overkill. Espionage doesn't even offer that.
Generally speaking, I like idea groups that give me completely new abilities, rather than just "do the same thing you've already been doing, only you're slightly better at it now". Things like explorers and conquistadors (exploration), the ability to convert territories (religious), and the reduced stab hits from diplomatic actions (diplomatic) are great for me, because they make different campaigns feel markedly different to each other. In my ideal world, all idea groups would have a transformative unique ability of this type, though I do appreciate how that can be a balance nightmare and risk making groups even more "must pick" than they are currently.
Moving onto specific groups or specific ideas, the reduced coring cost reduction in admin ideas is ridiculously strong. I usually tend to completely avoid mercenaries and mostly avoid loans, as a self-imposed restriction that suits the way I like to play. Given that, I should generally be completely ignoring a group that has 3 ideas based on mercs and one on loans. That I would still consider taking administrative ideas just for its one standout idea is probably indicative of a problem. Even setting aside balance issues, taking a group just for a single idea is something I find boring and un-fun.
Trade ideas feel as if they've been devalued a lot by changes to the game since launch. Three extra merchants used to be a big deal, but merchants are now sufficiently readily available through colonial naitons and trade companies that getting three more is irrelevant for trade-dedicated countries. That's two of the group's ideas and its finisher that are completely underwhelming and uninteresting for the countries that should be most interested in taking the group.
Generally speaking, I like idea groups that give me completely new abilities, rather than just "do the same thing you've already been doing, only you're slightly better at it now". Things like explorers and conquistadors (exploration), the ability to convert territories (religious), and the reduced stab hits from diplomatic actions (diplomatic) are great for me, because they make different campaigns feel markedly different to each other. In my ideal world, all idea groups would have a transformative unique ability of this type, though I do appreciate how that can be a balance nightmare and risk making groups even more "must pick" than they are currently.
Moving onto specific groups or specific ideas, the reduced coring cost reduction in admin ideas is ridiculously strong. I usually tend to completely avoid mercenaries and mostly avoid loans, as a self-imposed restriction that suits the way I like to play. Given that, I should generally be completely ignoring a group that has 3 ideas based on mercs and one on loans. That I would still consider taking administrative ideas just for its one standout idea is probably indicative of a problem. Even setting aside balance issues, taking a group just for a single idea is something I find boring and un-fun.
Trade ideas feel as if they've been devalued a lot by changes to the game since launch. Three extra merchants used to be a big deal, but merchants are now sufficiently readily available through colonial naitons and trade companies that getting three more is irrelevant for trade-dedicated countries. That's two of the group's ideas and its finisher that are completely underwhelming and uninteresting for the countries that should be most interested in taking the group.
There are change in DD posted right now... First thoughts
1. Humanism slight tolerance nerf. Good.
2. Religious can convert anything again. Conversion expensive but gets discount. Looks good. +2 tolerance of same faith - great. Really like these changes.
3. Exploration - expansion: Exploration loses 1 colonist, and some colonization speed, still has range. Expansion now gets two and more settlers. Other buffs to expansion. Looks good - if you want to colonize a lot you want these two groups.
3. Espionage - Influence: was thinking about this - its controversial, possible bad. So Espionage got Influence's -20% AE- This is huge. This AE is really important so we will want to pick this group. Faster spying, corruption and protection, diplomat these are all ok-ish. But they still kept that Rebel efficiency support ultimate crap? As well as pirate/embargo thing. That makes me not want to pick this group. Sad.
Influence, meanwhile, still gives you 50% unjustified demands, diplo rep and other goodies, as well as annex cost reduction, new 15% LD is very nice. Some very strong ideas.
There there's diplomatic which is great for warscore reduction. Interesting triangle..
- Fix: changing Espionage finisher from Rebel support crap to something meaningful looks like a must.
4. Maritime/Naval: Looks like you want Maritime to be peaceful naval group. So Maritime lost great combat bonus in +2 naval maneuver and got free leader - which we can use to put the guy in trade fleet. 100% navy tradition from trade can go to +2 NT ? Which can be better than previous straight +1 NT - provided you build your light ships. Did i get this right?
So we could get higher NT for more money and naval power... But Trade is so much better for money. Looks like half-assed change tbh.
Naval got slighlty improved with +1 NT. Minor change...
- Looks like nothing to me... bad/incomplete changes here, Maritime needs more economic buffs imo..
5. Innovative.. minor change - this is bland group somehow.. Lategamer if you don't have anything else to pick... looks quite redundant.
6. Quantity - nice touch - more supply, less attrition, fine.
Unfortunutely, they still failed to touch some groups like Aristocratic, Plutocratic, Trade.. even some changes to Adminsitrative and Diplomatic would be nice.
1. Humanism slight tolerance nerf. Good.
2. Religious can convert anything again. Conversion expensive but gets discount. Looks good. +2 tolerance of same faith - great. Really like these changes.
3. Exploration - expansion: Exploration loses 1 colonist, and some colonization speed, still has range. Expansion now gets two and more settlers. Other buffs to expansion. Looks good - if you want to colonize a lot you want these two groups.
3. Espionage - Influence: was thinking about this - its controversial, possible bad. So Espionage got Influence's -20% AE- This is huge. This AE is really important so we will want to pick this group. Faster spying, corruption and protection, diplomat these are all ok-ish. But they still kept that Rebel efficiency support ultimate crap? As well as pirate/embargo thing. That makes me not want to pick this group. Sad
.Influence, meanwhile, still gives you 50% unjustified demands, diplo rep and other goodies, as well as annex cost reduction, new 15% LD is very nice. Some very strong ideas.
There there's diplomatic which is great for warscore reduction. Interesting triangle..
- Fix: changing Espionage finisher from Rebel support crap to something meaningful looks like a must.
4. Maritime/Naval: Looks like you want Maritime to be peaceful naval group. So Maritime lost great combat bonus in +2 naval maneuver and got free leader - which we can use to put the guy in trade fleet. 100% navy tradition from trade can go to +2 NT ? Which can be better than previous straight +1 NT - provided you build your light ships. Did i get this right?
So we could get higher NT for more money and naval power... But Trade is so much better for money. Looks like half-assed change tbh.
Naval got slighlty improved with +1 NT. Minor change...
- Looks like nothing to me... bad/incomplete changes here, Maritime needs more economic buffs imo..
5. Innovative.. minor change - this is bland group somehow.. Lategamer if you don't have anything else to pick... looks quite redundant.
6. Quantity - nice touch - more supply, less attrition, fine.
Unfortunutely, they still failed to touch some groups like Aristocratic, Plutocratic, Trade.. even some changes to Adminsitrative and Diplomatic would be nice.