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lorrelion

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Hi Everyone!

So we decided to reveal some of the patch material last week and I think we can do that every other week from now on (until announcement obviously, after that you’ll get info on features every week up until release).

This week I’d like to ask your opinion on something related to design instead. As you know, we sometimes want to add soft barriers to our games. The demesne limit is one such barrier, ie you can hold more counties than it, but they’ll be less efficient so it’s often suboptimal to do so. I think this is a pretty ok way of letting players play the game like they want to, while telling you that the intention is to not go past this line (or not far past it at least). For you who played Sengoku, you might remember vassals asking for titles and getting angry if you didn’t hand them out which was a quick solution to a similar problem. In the Sengoku case, players who didn’t follow the rules usually got irritated by the constant spam of vassals asking for titles (and if you were way past the limit, you’d get it all the time). The solution was obviously not a good one. What I personally prefer when possible, is to give the player’s that follow the rules some kind of bonus instead.

So the question I’d like to ask you is:

What kind of bonus would you like to see as a trade off for limiting yourself in the game? The limit could be anything here, demesne limit is already taken care of so think of other stuff.

Related to that question:
If you could add optional limits that would give you bonuses, what type of limits would you like to see?
This could be anything from having all your titles and vassals as within the dejure of your primary title, or always making sure to be married to a daughter of the Byzantine emperor.


View attachment 143099

A small spoiler from an interface Work-In-Progress.

It would be a great service to the community for you to bring back the "distance to capital" relations modifier. Why? It reduces blobbing and makes the game harder in a good way. Especially with the factions system you could see some pretty serious challenges to your rule arise just from expanding too far.

Bring that modifier back would also make the selection of your capital so much more strategic. Example: "Should I place it on this super rich coast or should I place it in the center of my empire to reduce the penalty."
 
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panda.zip

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Problems and solutions:

-Genetic program:
Make that marrying a lower rank character gives a permament malus to opinion, depending on the rank diference, it can give a bonus if the rank diference is inverted in your favor.

Marrying someone from a diferent culture gives a malus to fertility(Or a bonus for same-culture)

-Mass children murder to put a specific female in power:
Geting caught in a plot to murder someone of the X dynasty will make X dynasty consider yours an enemy for a lot of time, canceling any bethoral, refusing any marriage porposal, and giving massive malus to opinions(basically the rival mechanic but on a bigger scale). As a trade-off, there can exist friendly dynasties.

I have more ideas, but i have to go for now.
 
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NewbieOne

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Hi, Birken!

Hats off to you, I really like your train of thought here.

My main observation here is going to be that the game already rewards you for a lot of things like you mention, along with a system of soft limits and rewards for keeping them. These are: opinion (more importantly) and income (less importantly). Both of them, but especially opinion, react to what you do now or did in the past and also determine what you can do in the future (or more of it vs less, earlier vs later etc.).

I'll elaborate, if you have the time and care to read more about this idea:

For example imagine your character is a good ruler, who tries to govern well and bring prosperity to his (or her) realm, takes the Rulership focus because that's what he or she cares the most about, which is WoL's figurative embodiment of aspirations toward good rule. You get traits, modifiers etc., your stewardship stat improves (as well as other stats for up to +3 total) and so on. So what's the overall effect of this?

For starters:

'Liege is Just' = +10 vassal opinion
'Liege is Diligent' = +10 vassal opinion
stackable with 'Both are Just/Diligent' for another +10 per trait
'Respected ruler' = +10 opinion from all vassals

The total is:

+30 opinion with all vassals, no matter what
+40 to +50 if they share the same values and priorities ('Both Just/Diligent' alone)
and +10 to +20 with external rulers

This also stacks with bonuses from being Kind and Charitable (good person) and/or Strong and Brave (strong ruler, 'battle king').

Your reward here consists in all of the things that the opinion boost allows you to do, notably by offsetting opinion penalties for your other actions. These can be various things across all aspects of the game, for example:

– peace and calm in your realm, as people are far less likely to join factions against you (sometimes at some point this gets to the point of there being no factions, there is not even any single rotten apple who would spymaster other vassals into joining the faction)
– external peace, as there are fewer people who dislike you, even stronger neighbours with claims on your territory cut you a lot of slack
– less personal danger from plots, assassination attempts etc.
– much more leeway (notably offsetting the 'Raised Levies' penalty) for your wars and especially their duration
— more levies as well, at +30 or especially +50 opinion it's the same effect as if you had Sent Gifts to your vassals before calling the banners
– more tax money, depending on what kind of vassal types and tax settings you have
– you can change crown and demesne laws without destabilizing the realm
– you can even do things like taxing your feudal vassals, which are normally a no-go zone
– you get away with Short Reign (or being an Ugly female, or educating your heir with a foreign culture etc.)
– the Pope's opinion of you is likely high enough to prevent excommunication
– more of your vassals will vote for your chosen heir in Elective (and you can get away with changing succession laws if you want/need to, which is sometimes difficult if your vassals are of the same dynasty as you)
– greater economic prosperity and development, especially considering that:

Your Stewardship stat increases (+2 from Just, +2 from Ambitious, +1 from Diligent, +3 from Administrator, +3 from the focus itself) translate into higher demesne limit (which means more income and levies, as well as investment opportunities, titles for your sons etc.) and directly into higher income (even higher if you always diligently take care to invite stewards with high stats to serve on your council).

More income simply means you can do more stuff… or you can do the same stuff but earlier. This includes especially construction of tax-generating buildings and new holdings for further improvement of your income (sometimes with your Steward hastening the construction).

And, like I mentioned before, this stacks with the perks of being a nice person, good diplomat or battle king, further increasing your opinion and the bonuses and — ultimately — opportunities it gives you.

So you get amply rewarded in the game for being a good ruler, a good person, and for diligence and effort (both the character's and the player's, e.g. the benefit of always taking care to have good councillors is obvious, and then you can be even more diligent and breed and educate future councillors to advice your heirs).

See? The meat is already there. It's just that the boons are not always seen by players, because the 'carrot and stick' chain — the causation chain, if you prefer — is a bit longer and more complicated, it's not always easy to notice for some people, it may be easy to confuse the rewards of being a good ruler with a mistaken impression that the game is easy in general.

Penalties are also there in the game, for crossing the soft limits of opinion: For example: neglect stewardship, neglect being Just or Diligent, allow yourself to be Arbitrary... and you're going to lose these powerful boons and even get some penalties delivered simply by the opinion system and income (as the medium). Be a bad person and/or a bad ruler, and vassals and neighbours will hate you, attack you, plot against you etc. But many players will confuse this with a mistaken impression that the game is hard in general (which it is not, it's more in the medium range).

My conclusion is that there is already a great system of both soft limits and rewards in-game (which may sometimes be hard to tell apart, as it's quite fluid, as it should be). The 'difficult' part here is that those rewards simply are not explicit perks.

Hence, if you want to bring out trade-offs, soft limits, rewards and soft penalties, perhaps what you need to do is be more explicit about the stuff that you have already included in the game. This could be done with events, dialogues, Chronicle entries, some visual rewards (badges of honour akin to Steam achievements but inside your game and not on your Steam profile), but it strikes me as a task for the marketing department and community managers — to call more attention to player tutorials, guides, CK2 Wiki, gameplay vids, AARs, educational screenshots and everything else like that.

Or get a writer to do a write-up (with pictures, tables and diagrams) of what already is in the game but emphasizing the links and synergies.

Additionally, on the design/scripting front, you may want to:

1. Long-term: Bring diplomacy (education trait, actions etc. as opposed to passive modifiers) to the same level of development that stewardship and governance already has in this game.
Perhaps warfare could use it also, but first of all you want to think about replacing the 3-year 99% war score limit with something less artificial and making AI consider the pros and cons of capitulating before 100%, especially as attacker. This is because allowing your entire army to be butchered to 0 and then again a couple of times after reraising is very dangerous to realm stability — it makes faction power rise and can cost you your throne; AI should be conscious of this and not suicidally stubborn 90% of the time like it is now.
Religion has a good complex set of passive modifiers — Church View on X — but in the longer term you you could make the Pope more active, along with cardinals and local churchmen. I would like to see excommunication used a bit more often than now. It shouldn't be an everyday occurrence but perhaps more frequent than it is now anyway. Other bonuses and maluses could be awarded through dialogue windows with the Pope.

2. In a shorter term perhaps do something with the 100/100 hard tie-breaker between pope and liege. The Pope could also give it over to you if he likes you or especially if you are crusading (Louis IX had that kind of agreement with the then-Pope). Or you could just remove the 100 cap for the purposes of comparison alone and compare the +120 vs +240 sum total of modifiers in the background while displaying +100 for both.

3. Tell Groogy to give up on automatically making you join your allies' wars. That idea goes completely against the idea of soft limits and trade-offs. It's almost like AI playing the game for you.

4. Remove hard blocks from diplovassalization while still keeping the requirements difficult to meet, and make opinion count for more, not less (i.e. the opposite direction from the recent patches). This is because opinion is largely a product of your actions and your personality, hence choices and tradeoffs you make. If you reduce the impact of opinion, relying instead on de iure, religion, culture as hard blocks, then you make the game more deterministic and hardcoded.

There is no justification for the hard blocks existing right now, other than anti-blobbing/balance. But you can achieve that goal by making those conditions hard but not impossible to meet.

If you are worried about gifts, perhaps include a check against them while checking opinion.

Most importantly, small AI rulers facing the threat of being wiped out in a single holy war from any 1 of 5 neighbouring enemies should look for protection and should not turn it down easily when offered. Losing your independence is better than losing your land and possibly life.

5. Introduce a form of badboy by making AI rulers attempt to replace you with a claimant when their patience runs out. This would be a bit similar to excom for notorious misdeeds.

6. Increase the risks for Seducers, in particular, as their life is unrealistically low on risk right now. Often you have no CB even if they are exposed trying to seduce your own wife. They should be facing the threat of capture, imprisonment, castration (even outside of Byzantine culture), execution, excommunication, war.

7. The same goes for other forms of infidelity and sexual scandals.

8. Marrying within your rank doesn't really need a reward, because it's the typical thing to do anyway, but marrying up doesn't seem to raise your status other than increasing your children's rank for marriage and giving you some prestige. This can already be felt as a benefit, but perhaps some more recognition could be advisable.

Marrying below your rank does harm your prestige, but it still isn't penalized enough, there is no opinion malus among your aristocratic vassals etc. Consider the outrage over Edward IV and Elizabeth Woodville, for example. There should be serious downsides to marrying 3–4 tiers below but especially marrying a lowborn as a king or emperor.

On the other hand, all the foreign blood in your dynasty's veins from consistently marrying foreign royals could perhaps lead to some resentment among more nationalist-minded vassals.

9. 'Conveniently' dynasty prestige is a bit underutilized, so perhaps a first step could be to make it reflect the rank of people married, not only titles held.

10. I would perhaps also add war prestige (but not the kind of prestige you get every month for holding your titles, that's already covered), crusades won, empires and kingdoms founded etc. to dynasty prestige to make it more varied/deeper than just titles held. This would more fully reflect the real standing and fame of your dynasty for marriage purposes.

11. Huge character prestige should matter more than it already does, rather than its perks being hard-capped at a low number. Being able to create a custom empire at 8K is a nice exception, but I'd like to see more. When rulers have like 5K prestige, their word should hold sway outside their borders. They should have a larger role in international politics, diplomacy etc., not only wars.

12. Treason could use more serious consequences. Larger revocation allowance (1 title often means nothing). More use of execution and banishment by the AI.

13. If you play it too feudal as a Patrician, you should probably face some resentment from republican hardliners. I love the way it's possible to own large feudal fiefs, fight normal wars, make the dogeship practically hereditary in your family, even neglecting trade all the while. But I'm pretty sure in real life it would ruffle some feathers.

14. This might not be worth the bother (especially since you can modify your CoA on your own any way you want), but nobles would often 'impale' or 'quarter' their arms with those of their important wives, especially heiresses, last of the line etc. Also sometimes lieges rewarded them by adding something prestigious to their CoAs, sometimes even elements of the liege's own CoA.

15. Another minor thing, but, historically, not all people titled as princes or princesses were historically children of kings and emperors, so perhaps you might want to make it possible to somehow acquire princely status for your family despite the lack of a full kingdom. Historically this was the case with ethnic leaders, think tribal chiefs converting into feudal dukes, which is a bit similar to petty kings. Children of petty kings should be titular princes, if not necessarily ranking above the children of normal dukes.

16. It would be great to be able to earn your way toward being elected the king or emperor of an uncreated title, especially one that existed before but was destroyed, especially if you have a claim on it but not enough land, by your fellow vassals of the same title. Basically independents getting together and electing a king to rule the recreated/unified kingdom. Especially for Ireland, Wales, Saxon England, Russia.

17. Giving your liege more levies than required and/or more than your opinion would normally suggest is currently not possible. Well, it should be possible because what's there in feudal law that says you are allowed to provide no more than such and such number of troops? The game seems to be based on the presumption that characters want to do as little as possible under the feudal contract, which certainly need not be the case, given the various personalities and opinions etc.
Enabling this could also eliminate the need to attack the armies of your liege's enemies with your own troops without the ability to affect the war score, which players end up doing anyway (I've done it a lot myself).

18. The game kinda presumes that you want to do the minimum you can get away with for your liege, in general. I think it would be interesting to open up a way to actually serve your liege

19. I would make AI lieges construct buildings in their vassals' holdings (including the human player) if there is a benefit to the liege — starting from shipyards and fortifications. Shipyards because they tend to serve the entire realm rather than just the count or duke, and forts because your ability to resist sieges is also important to your liege's war scores in his own wars.

20. I would take away characters' traits for actions inconsistent with those traits. That would be a soft limit in itself: yes, you can break your word, but don't expect to keep your Honest trait (and +2 diplo). Yes, you can incur Tyranny, but don't expect to keep your Just trait (and +2 stewardship).

21, Last but not least, concerning blobbing, overextension etc., it would be a good thing to make laws not automatically obeyed. To what extent your laws and your commands are obeyed should depend on a number of things, including prestige, respect, sympathy, distance from capital, personal loyalties and moral codes.

***

Since you mentioned 'having all your titles and vassals as within the dejure of your primary title':

1. Secondary titles also matter, they can be perfectly reasonable legit holdings inherited e.g. from one's mother, who was the heiress of an old dynasty ruling there for many centuries (think James I/VI inheriting England). So I think primary title alone would be too restrictive.

2. Still, I can think of some bonuses for owning your full de iure and/or owning nothing outside it:

– completing your full de iure puts you somewhere close to modern nation states or makes you a restorer/liberator/whatever kind of personage; there is also no stain on your honour from foreigners controlling parts of your kingdom; regarding bonuses I would think about prestige or a free law change, or increasing your Crown Authority without the usual opinion penalties
– on the other hand, not owning anything outside your de iure puts you somewhere in the Content & Temperate range; it could also mean you focus more on internal than external affairs; you could perhaps get away with higher crown authority, get more demesne limit/centralization, get some piety, be seen as less of a threat by the AI (as you are clearly not an expansionist.

***

Next, I agree with the idea of rewarding fidelity/chastity. Perhaps also some kind of 'fair play' rewards for characters that don't fabricate claims, sow dissent, assassinate people, make chancellors disappear, torture prisoners, give or take bribes etc.

This may be a bit off-topic, but I certainly agree with keynes2.0 that fighting large opponents for small pieces of land is very tedious right now. However, I don't agree that war score should be completely scaled down to the size of the war goal. That would unnecessarily restrain large defenders who wanted to keep on defending their stuff, or large attackers who wanted to keep advancing, despite initial setbacks. Just perhaps make the clock tick faster or enable more ways of combining claims. I don't really know.

What I would personally like to see is some kind of a bonus for not being cruel or harsh with your enemies and errant subjects. Similar to Merciful +10 opinion for releasing imprisoned vassals, but with more triggers and more consequences.
 
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NewbieOne

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Thank you for the DD. I will contribute immediately with two items and then contribute with more later.

The first item I'd like to discuss is the soft-limit to expansion called: the truce. As the game exists, it is too easy to break truces and ignore the consequences. Especially when warring against heathen and infidels. What I'd like to see is harsher consequences the more truces are broken in a life-time of a character and a reward for keeping truces intact. People continually complain about how easy it is to expand rapidly but in the next breath talk about how they break truces all over the place without concern.

The second item I'd like to discuss is the soft limit on number of top-tiered titles held. I'd like to see a more active electorate/vassalage community in title distribution. Currently CK2's dynasties all become Hapsburg-like as time marches on. More "Winter-king" scenarios and more intervention by religious heads in succession would enhance the soft-limits that currently exist and these types of mechanisms would do a lot to increase the narrative of the dynasty and differentiate play-throughs better.

An emperor or empress should have a hard limit of one e_level title - there should only be one temporal pinnacle attainable in medieval society. Every person is trying to move up their station in medieval society except the person at the top... that last bit is lacking currently.

Another area to be discussed later is the rewards and consequences of adhering to a person's role within the ethos of medieval society. One of the reasons I dislike Way of Life is because in many cases a reward exists for breaking a role-model (infidelity) without consequence enough to balance acting in such a manner. An example in the vanilla game is title revocation: A king has every right to revoke a Duke's title for any reason; yet in CK2 the consequences of doing so unjustly do not match the weight of the reward gained.

More thoughts later.

I agreed with everything apart from the hard cap on empires. But please note I'm against hard caps in general. I'm still in favour of there being, in de iure terms, just BYZ and the HRE in Europe, as a continuation of a universalist Rome empire, but I can't see a logical reason why royal crowns should be stackable but imperial ones not.

Besides, as long as you have the land anyway, actually holding multiple kingdoms and empires is an anti-blobbing device, as — while you do get more prestige — your vassals get the Desires X penalty and you don't get to de iure drift all your land into your primary title. Think about all those players who talk about how they destroy their additional titles.

Besides, imagine something like a Mongol empire inheriting the HRE/BYZ or the other way round. It could be doable to keep both crowns on the same head, but it would be extremely hard to conflate such different polities.

This said, distance and other problems should give you a strong incentive to spin off secondary titles. Castille + Leon is one thing, or France + Navarra, but England + Hungary should be more difficult. Same for non-adjacent empires.

Regarding revocation without cause, it definitely is not penalized enough in compact peaceful realms. But when playing as rulers of very large realms, and especially fighting a lot of wars, I've often found myself unable to take the risk of -20, let alone -40 opinion with all vassals. Perhaps not within weeks but within a year I'd have been dealing with multiple >100% power factions. In such cases, even if you win in the end, your realm still gets devastated, cash is spent on levy upkeep that could be spent on construction projects, you also get smugglers' rings and highway robbers and everything else for going bankrupt (which you will). And your rebels will lose land to holy wars from their neighbours.
 

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I'd like mechanics forcing you to wage war often and give land to your soldiers to keep an empire stable, hopefully they'd be super awful early game and less so late game as the early feudal system is phased out.
 

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I don't know if this had already been posted in this thread, but I'd like to see some stability modifiers. Like when a character decides whether or not to join a faction certain stability points contribute to the character deciding to not join the faction. Have it be a non-negative system. I don't want an EU IV style stability, I just want some extra help staving off rebellions.
 

Zolotaya

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... Another area to be discussed later is the rewards and consequences of adhering to a person's role within the ethos of medieval society...More thoughts later.

One area of design that CK2 can see more soft limitations being implemented is in: Character Advancement.

Medieval societal norms were just as important in defining the historical era as Victorian norms were important in defining that era. CK2has no soft limits that help enforce these norms within each ethos represented. Christian, Pagan, Nomad and Muslim characters are able to act like 20th century politicians just as much as they are allowed to act like 14th century rulers. This can be shaped and changed with proper limits and rewards.

The first emphasis I'd like to suggest is to place soft limitations on "breaking the laws of ranking". This is something that applied cross-civilization within the medieval era so it is something that can be done to limit all characters. The medieval person; man and woman, low-born and high-born and first-born and last-born all were aware of constantly being on a stage and constantly being judged by their peers and betters. Occasionally acting outside expected norms were tolerated but constant breaking of expectations caused increasing harm over time - not only for the individual but for the dynasty as well.

A prime example of this and a norm with built in soft-limitations able to be attached for game purposes was the expectation that those of higher rank would command in any given situation. Currently, there is no effective limitation for advancing lower-born characters over higher-born characters. A leader is more times than not currently chosen by the "numbers" over any other consideration.

In CK2, reward the player for choosing his noble-born peers over the low-born; from every major decision including: marriage, councilors, and commanders of armies. Rewards for snagging a Princess to marry your son should be given within the realm; at the same time the consequences to the dynasty for continually marrying "down" should grow more sever the more times it happens within a given time period.

A Duke capable of being a Chancellor should reward his liege for choosing him over the low-born sirrah angling for the job. The fact that he is a Duke makes him more qualified in the medieval ethos just by the fact of him being a Duke and his rival being a low-born.

Another example: continual advancement of the low-born to field commands over the nobility should start having tangible consequences - levies being withheld, desertions, plots, appeals to a higher liege lord to overturn the appointments and other mali can easily be conceived. Rewards for adhering to expected norms can be of the same categories: more levies mustered, plot support given, etc.

I'll continue later but enough for now.
 
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Fawr

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So the question I’d like to ask you is:

What kind of bonus would you like to see as a trade off for limiting yourself in the game? The limit could be anything here, demesne limit is already taken care of so think of other stuff.

Related to that question:
If you could add optional limits that would give you bonuses, what type of limits would you like to see?
This could be anything from having all your titles and vassals as within the dejure of your primary title, or always making sure to be married to a daughter of the Byzantine emperor.

I'd like to see anything which is a hard limit reduced into a soft limit.

Want to have a retinue larger than the normal size? Sure, but it will impact your vassal's relations (and cost more).
Want to legitimise that bastard son? Sure, but what will your vassals, the church, your previous heir think (and is that very pious)?
Want to have a new bastard son? Why do you need to wait for a random event?
What to declare war as a Muslim without sufficient piety? Sure, but there should be consequences for -ve piety.
Want to change taxes (either double increases or flip flopping around) or crown laws faster than normal? Sure - but that will have an impact.
Want your daughter to inherit even with the wrong inheritance rules - ok, but that's going to be very unpopular (and if it goes through without a hitch automatically change the laws for next time)!
 
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NewbieOne

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I'd like mechanics forcing you to wage war often and give land to your soldiers to keep an empire stable, hopefully they'd be super awful early game and less so late game as the early feudal system is phased out.

That calls attention to the interesting problem — both in real life and in CK2 — of there simply not being land enough any more to reward every deserving vassal or subject, or to provide for a truly royal lifestyle for non-primary heirs. If you recall from real-life history, for example, as early as the 12th century French monarchy didn't normally having anything more than a county for younger sons, and in some rare cases as low as a barony. There were royal dukes in England, but many royals were earls only. Same for Scotland.

And yes, royal sons and grandsons could very plausibly end up outranked by a non-royal vassal duke (think about some Count of Artois or Lord of Courtenay compared to the Duke of Aquitaine or even Count of Flanders).

CK2 players probably experience this pain when they realize the need to get out of gavelkind and introduce primo — or else they will have a demesne of 1 in a kingdom or empire with powerful dukes and counts, and with powerful enemies (enemies with large demesnes for a lot of demesne troops and income). Also the income will be very low, limiting your options, making you unable to pay for levy upkeep as well as practically anything else.

Retaining a sensible levy and income base for the liege/family head necessarily means restricting the inheritance of younger sons, boons for nephews, rewards for faithful vassals and councillors etc. And this isn't modern England, you can't just hand out purely nominal titles to working people.

And my point is: this is something you can't stop. It's a natural process. But, of course, the vassals, unlanded councillors, courtiers and relatives and the rest of them folks may feel let down, disappointed, even disgruntled or cheated out of their dues. Some will naturally end up as adventurers (even without actual claims in some cases), which is probably the primary outlet for the energy and frustration of the more ambitious and entrepreneurial ones, whereas the less ambitious or less enterprising kind could perhaps sit back and complain, meaning in practice an opinion malus such as for 'promised a title'. Speaking of which, we already have a title-asking mechanic in the game, connected with the 'gain a title ambition'.

… And being confronted with the results of the relatives' 'gain a title' ambition (such relatives sometimes include nephews, uncles, possibly even more distant relatives, not just sons and brothers) is probably a sufficient thorn in the side of a monarch put in a situation like we're discussing here. But perhaps the circle of askers could be widened a little to include long-serving and/or ambitious councillors and commanders. A similar mechanic for vassals would require more work, but it's worth noting that vassals already trouble you with requests for 'titles that should be theirs' (which goes as far as counts claiming that the ducal title above them, which you hold, should be theirs by right!) or 'vassals that should serve them and not you directly'.

So what you're asking for basically already is present in the game. :) It just isn't explicitly packaged as an overextension penalty of the kind you have in EU3.

Incidentally, this relates to my earlier observation (not claiming to be the only or first person who noticed it) that there are already are plenty of soft limits and carrot-and-stick systems in the game, including a lot of informal/non-explicit ones, a lot more than players realize, and possibly a lot more than even the designers themselves realize they have created.

… It's only that there is no explicit commentary telling the player exactly what's going on. Which doesn't change the fact it really is going on.

Which is also why I suggested giving more power to 'WritAARs' and authors of gameplay vids or even commissioning a (copy)writer to do a write-up of existing mechanics, bringing out to daylight all the complex relationships and dependencies (along with non-explicit, indirect rewards and penalties that are nonetheless very powerful and important).

One area of design that CK2 can see more soft limitations being implemented is in: Character Advancement.

Medieval societal norms were just as important in defining the historical era as Victorian norms were important in defining that era. CK2has no soft limits that help enforce these norms within each ethos represented. Christian, Pagan, Nomad and Muslim characters are able to act like 20th century politicians just as much as they are allowed to act like 14th century rulers. This can be shaped and changed with proper limits and rewards.

The first emphasis I'd like to suggest is to place soft limitations on "breaking the laws of ranking". This is something that applied cross-civilization within the medieval era so it is something that can be done to limit all characters. The medieval person; man and woman, low-born and high-born and first-born and last-born all were aware of constantly being on a stage and constantly being judged by their peers and betters. Occasionally acting outside expected norms were tolerated but constant breaking of expectations caused increasing harm over time - not only for the individual but for the dynasty as well.

A prime example of this and a norm with built in soft-limitations able to be attached for game purposes was the expectation that those of higher rank would command in any given situation. Currently, there is no effective limitation for advancing lower-born characters over higher-born characters. A leader is more times than not currently chosen by the "numbers" over any other consideration.

In CK2, reward the player for choosing his noble-born peers over the low-born; from every major decision including: marriage, councilors, and commanders of armies. Rewards for snagging a Princess to marry your son should be given within the realm; at the same time the consequences to the dynasty for continually marrying "down" should grow more sever the more times it happens within a given time period.

A Duke capable of being a Chancellor should reward his liege for choosing him over the low-born sirrah angling for the job. The fact that he is a Duke makes him more qualified in the medieval ethos just by the fact of him being a Duke and his rival being a low-born.

Another example: continual advancement of the low-born to field commands over the nobility should start having tangible consequences - levies being withheld, desertions, plots, appeals to a higher liege lord to overturn the appointments and other mali can easily be conceived. Rewards for adhering to expected norms can be of the same categories: more levies mustered, plot support given, etc.

I'll continue later but enough for now.

Some very astute observations.

Regarding the bolded part: Yes, not only that, but dukes and other high-ranking nobles were seen as territorial rulers rather than simply aristocrats (except maybe for England), and, well, vassals (dependent rulers) rather than subjects. Alternatively, they were emanations of royal power (often related the monarch closely enough to form part of the extended royal family). Either way, they were someone with an interest in the governance of the realm. Junior partners, so to say.

The idea that a king was supposed to rely on his existing lords rather than running the kingdom through a bunch of lowborns uplifted by himself was quite vital to the origins of modern parliamentarism (think senate vs purely executive appointees). Incidentally, those high nobles usually had the benefit of education and experience, but they also had a sense of pride and autonomy and perhaps a moral backbone (and chivalric code and all), making them intelligent servants rather than the passive, obedient tools that some monarchs would have preferred. Apart from personal morality and honour, they might very well see themselves as responsible for the welfare of the realm rather than simply obliged to follow the king. This should make for some interesting tensions in CK2.

(For the record, Medieval II had an event not even for the Magna Carta but also for the baronial revolt/Lords Appelant. That could make for a nice DLC here.)

On the other hand, the relative ranks of individual nobles were a bit of a different matter, less clear-cut and less important than you might think. There was greater honour in an earl than a baron, but even between a baron and a duke there was a certain kind of equality in England. I'm referring to Blackstone's commentaries here, as my direct source of inspiration. In France, titles were frequently spontaneously self-assumed by the old nobility back in the old times. Some powerful people shunned titles, or they at least refused any augmentation of the titles their ancestors had borne, regardless of their relative power.

Finally, let's get back to how nobility worked. I'll choose France for this, as it was pretty much the global centre of the entire nobility business. The fundamental nobility or lack thereof consisted in being at least an ecuyer, a squire (kinda like the English esquire). Being an ecuyer, in France, gave you the ability to hold fiefs. Three types of people could hold fiefs: squires, knights and princes. Initially, baron of this, count of that, duke of whatever were just fiefs. They were initially not quite as permanent as the basic nobility you held or not, whereas you could gain or lose a fief much more easily. (And you lost the title along with the fief, unlike in modern times.) Being entrusted with a fief was not worlds apart from being entrusted with a court office or military command. Hence, within nobility proper, I wouldn't put so much emphasis on relative ranks, at least not early on.

Now, holding a barony from a count was a whole different business than just 1-tier difference in rank (such as within the group of the king's direct vassals). He was your lord then.
 

DevilSauron

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I do not like the idea of pushing the player into specific direction, therefore I do not propose bonuses. However, I think that there should be more ways to play the game. I propose for example:
Religious tolerance laws, so one can rule an empire with many religions. There was/is a mod which can be used as inspiration
Cultural tolerance laws with similar meaning as religious ones
 
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vandevere

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One thing I would like to see is more creative use made of the difficulty slider, maybe even adding more difficulty ranks within the slider, so you can run the gamut; all the way from the dreaded "I-win Button" to the equally dreaded "I-lose Button".

That way, *EVERYONE" can have fun playing this game; the Elites and the casuals too...
 

Erendir

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Hi Everyone!

So we decided to reveal some of the patch material last week and I think we can do that every other week from now on (until announcement obviously, after that you’ll get info on features every week up until release).

This week I’d like to ask your opinion on something related to design instead. As you know, we sometimes want to add soft barriers to our games. The demesne limit is one such barrier, ie you can hold more counties than it, but they’ll be less efficient so it’s often suboptimal to do so. I think this is a pretty ok way of letting players play the game like they want to, while telling you that the intention is to not go past this line (or not far past it at least). For you who played Sengoku, you might remember vassals asking for titles and getting angry if you didn’t hand them out which was a quick solution to a similar problem. In the Sengoku case, players who didn’t follow the rules usually got irritated by the constant spam of vassals asking for titles (and if you were way past the limit, you’d get it all the time). The solution was obviously not a good one. What I personally prefer when possible, is to give the player’s that follow the rules some kind of bonus instead.

So the question I’d like to ask you is:

What kind of bonus would you like to see as a trade off for limiting yourself in the game? The limit could be anything here, demesne limit is already taken care of so think of other stuff.

Related to that question:
If you could add optional limits that would give you bonuses, what type of limits would you like to see?
This could be anything from having all your titles and vassals as within the dejure of your primary title, or always making sure to be married to a daughter of the Byzantine emperor.


View attachment 143099

A small spoiler from an interface Work-In-Progress.


I'd like to see a reward for NOT using the chancellor's fabricate claim ability. I'm having hard time thinking of a positive reward for it, but the penalty could be just a global negative opinion modifier, that lasts for few generations.
 

Jorlem

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I'd like to see a reward for NOT using the chancellor's fabricate claim ability. I'm having hard time thinking of a positive reward for it, but the penalty could be just a global negative opinion modifier, that lasts for few generations.
I'd like it if instead of outright fabricating claims, we could only revive them instead. Basically, if one of your ancestors had held the title or gained a claim on a title via inheritance, you'd be able to revive a claim on that title. You wouldn't, however, be able to freely fabricate claims randomly anywhere on the map.
 
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vandevere

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I'd like to see a reward for NOT using the chancellor's fabricate claim ability. I'm having hard time thinking of a positive reward for it, but the penalty could be just a global negative opinion modifier, that lasts for few generations.

The only problem there is that it would remove the play value of "Tutorial Island".

Also, there are some starts where fabricating claims is the only way to get ahead, at least in the beginning...
 
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AjayAlcos

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Limits? Well if you're a Catholic ruler, you can only create an Empire if given the Pope's blessing.
 

DevilSauron

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Limits? Well if you're a Catholic ruler, you can only create an Empire if given the Pope's blessing.
In my opinion, it would make Catholicism less enjoyable and fun...
 
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Enriador

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I miss relevant navies. A naval warfare system should be implemented, it would double our amount of fun!
 
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Tweakee

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At the moment there is very little incentive not to blob. It would be good if there was some sort of peace dividend such as an economic boost, which gradually increased the longer you were at peace.

I agree with the idea. I'd make the bonus affect the rate of religious/cultural conversion. So if you own 50 provinces and only one of them is wrong religion/culture, it is far more likely to convert than if half your nation is a different group.

If you did that along with a more dangerous rebellion mechanic (fewer revolts, but bigger ones), you could have a system where massive empires still face a real challenge, while more realistic expansion has far fewer hassles.
 
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Redwulf_Storm

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Hmmm
Idea time. . .My favorite time. . .(Pardon for any repeats of others but my life is too busy currently to read this thread :()

1. An economic bonus for staying at peace for 10 or more years (Businesses are expanding, people spend money more freely)
2. Another monetary bonus of say 5% (or whatever you please) if all direct vassals have a positive opinion of you due to efficiency and less skimming.
3. A Piety bonus if you have no 'sin' traits
4. A income bonus if you have no 'virtue' traits (squeeze them, every last drop!)
5. A fertility bonus when at peace. More time for. . .you know.
6. A small "fear" opinion bonus for each prisoner you execute (from your own realm). Greater the higher rank that individual was.
7. Another "fear" bonus if your intrigue is over 20. Also a bonus if your martial is over 20 among nobles, a bonus if your learning is over 20 among priest, you get the picture.
8. A opinion bonus if your family has held the same (highest) title for at least 100 years.
9. A bonus to income and opinion if your entire realm is entirely connected (note it can connect over a water space ie: English channel)
10. Bonus to the number of ships your realm has for each province bordering ocean/sea zone.
11. Bonus to troop numbers if surrounded by realms of other religions, at least in bordering counties. (constant vigilance!)
12. Rulers could educate children better when at peace.
13. Errr...I will think up more later if I have the time!

Of course this is all dependent, I hope, on making the game harder in other ways to counteract this goodness (like some corresponding penalties). ;)
Thank you for reading!
 
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schondetta

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trade ducats and or/ prestige for monthly revolt risk like on a slider of some sorts more resource for less revolt risk . or something like that. i like trade offs liks this . more powerful commanders for more revolt risk too makes sense to me