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BlitzMartinDK

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It's a bit easier to kill inflation than it once was, given that masters of mint can be recruited on demand. And as Sid says, there's the buildings to consider; in IN being fought over had no lasting effects on the value of a province since buildings and such would stay as the province changed hands, but that's no longer true in DW.
Do the buildings get destroyed if you siege a province already? - if you occupy it? or only if you loose it in peacedeal?

The first two will raise the cost of not winning/fighting on your own ground decisively..

So how much of Bavaria got occupied before peacedeal? And of Catalunia?
 

BlitzMartinDK

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Von_R :So Tibet gained 7 provinces and you gained 2? -in asia that is..

What was your overall provincegain, and croatias? -And how did this war start?
 

fasquardon

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I agree that Bavaria and Catalunia weren't using their resources very effectively in this war. Blayne gives a good picture of the military side of things. Worth adding to his analysis is the point that expending alot of resources on a war isn't just about having more armies to fight with - but it is also a clear message to the enemy that you are ready to fight hard. The Americans made a similar mistake at the start of the game by going for too much of a colonial focus at the start, rather than preparing for a hard fight, so that their enemies thought twice about attacking them in the first place. By comparison Ethiopia and Kongo, with similar start positions have kept large armies and high levels of land tech from the start of the game. (Not that this was our only advantage, we also have some of the worst land in the game.)

Of course, given how strong both Bavaria and Catalunia are, no-one should count them out for the count. Bavaria is still as strong as the entire African alliance combined.

With regards to the Mongol front in Tibet, that was indeed a debacle. Poor coordination between me and Tibet was what really made the difference here. It was also a terribly short-sighted decision by me to even fight in Tibet. By allowing myself to get distracted by something that was a long way from being a decisive front, I allowed the Punjab war to extend longer than needed.

fasquardon
 

Ccbasin

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And to Sid's analysis : nicely argued, a lot is right.. but in olden times (I haven't played in recent years) wars might come and go, and provinces likewise, but Inflation is for life! -Is it still so?
Low Inflation is no good if you are a two province minor after the wars. :)
 

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Do the buildings get destroyed if you siege a province already? - if you occupy it? or only if you loose it in peacedeal?
The last.

Von_R :So Tibet gained 7 provinces and you gained 2? -in asia that is..
Tibet got three provinces.
 

Irsh Faq

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Is Persia, at this time, really any danger to any of you guys??
Yes. Economically they may be far behind, but militarily, being free to focus entirely on land and having won the best land military national decision in the auction makes them a not inconsiderable force. Grand Army + Battlefield Commissions + Military Drill + Shia morale bonus + Eight Banners Army decision (or whatever it's called, the +33% forcelimits, +5% discipline one) = an army significantly more powerful than Persia's economy would suggest.
 

von_Rundstedt

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Yes. Economically they may be far behind, but militarily, being free to focus entirely on land and having won the best land military national decision in the auction makes them a not inconsiderable force. Grand Army + Battlefield Commissions + Military Drill + Shia morale bonus + Eight Banners Army decision (or whatever it's called, the +33% forcelimits, +5% discipline one) = an army significantly more powerful than Persia's economy would suggest.
+ Mayi leading it.
 

BlitzMartinDK

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The last.



Tibet got three provinces.
So the buildings are only lost when you loose the province in peacedeal/annex?
Well, that's somewhat more reasonable..:D
.about provinces : But V.R. wrote that Kom gave up 2 prov. to him, 3 prov to Tibet, and then there was 4 prov in Punjab gained by ??
 

von_Rundstedt

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So the buildings are only lost when you loose the province in peacedeal/annex?
Well, that's somewhat more reasonable..:D
.about provinces : But V.R. wrote that Kom gave up 2 prov. to him, 3 prov to Tibet, and then there was 4 prov in Punjab gained by ??
2 to Tripoli, 2 to Kongo.
 

el_zilcho321

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Modernization​


Since the beginning of the Khmer Empire in 802 our technology has been far more superior than the surrounding kingdoms. We constructed great buildings and many Buddhist temples. The temple city of Angkor Wat, built by emperor Suryavarman II, has been credited by the many monks and historians as being the most complex and magnificent building in all of Asia. Despite this great architecture, after the decline and revival of the empire in the 15th century, our ways began to fall behind those of the other powers around us.

Spanish galleons arrived at the Indonesian isles and began trade with the grand Sultana of Malaya. The innovative ruler adopted the ways of the Europeans. The lord of Qin also adopted these ideas. Being a tolerant man, the Emperor of Khmer allowed the thoughts and ideas of men from the arriving Chinese junks to spread among the land. After many years of European contact the people of Khmer had finally reached a level of intelligence on par with the rest of Europe. This allowed the technology, and subsequently economy, to prosper. The army, however did not want to modernize. They felt as though they were already superior than the Europeans. They were wrong. They were as good as the remaining Arabian Sultanas' armies.

The Emperors of the 16th century were negligent to say the least. The were incompetent and were unable to change the views of the army generals and officials. None of the emperors managed to centralize the country enough to force the generals into their way of thinking. The nobility were frustrated with these incapable rulers, they wanted someone reliable. They wanted someone who was not there by birth but by merit. Due to their large power the nobility made a deal with the last emperor. He would keep his place for eight more years but after that the people would vote for their new leader.

Many rulers passed before Khmer was a fully centralized. At the end of the 16th century, every law and every decision was passed by the prince of Khmer. At this time he forced the military generals to upgrade their idiotic outdated troops, for better equipped ones. Their reliability was displayed in the short Khmer excursion to Tibet in aid of its protector and ally, Croatia. The new, modern troops fared very well against the Tibetans however their glory was cut short due to African intervention. The Africans persuaded Croatia and its allies to pull out of Tibet.

As well as a modern army, new naval thinkers have arisen. Encouraged by the lack of land enemies, many Khmer people have turned to the boat as opposed to the sword. With the new, Western ways of thinking the sailors of Khmer man large galleons, carracks and caravels. The junks of old times are now merely fisher-mans boats, never used for ocean wide voyages.

The times have changed. The old has gone. The people of Khmer are ready for change, whatever it is. With the latest ships and guns, Khmer will change.

Watch this space.​
 

King of Men

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The Death of Hope

"How long, O Mikael, will you abuse our patience? How long shall we wait for victory? How long shall we send our sons to die on distant frontiers, and bury them for the quarrels of dead men?" Thus begin the Mikaeline Orations, hurled by Ioannes Angelidis at his rival Mikael Konstandis. (*) In so doing Ioannes was venting the feelings of a rising generation of Romans, who chafed at the sumptuary laws, the military discipline, and the austere customs of New Byzantium. They felt, not unreasonably, that if these generations-long sacrifices had failed to bring the long-sought Day of Victory, in which Rome would finally triumph over its enemies, then the Victory was probably not achievable. And if that were so, they asked, what was the use of each succeeding generation shouldering increasingly intolerable burdens?

In this rebellion against the fanatical devotion of previous years, the Hedonist faction (as their opponents, who came in contrast to be called Ascetics, labelled them) was aided by the widespread sense of disillusionment after the War of the Continents (1572-1580). There is a certain amount of irony in this, for the legions had in fact acquitted themselves well, advancing far into the Tibetan highlands and even scoring victories over the dreaded Russian armies. The Komnenoi, who had uncomplainingly borne a century of bitter defeats and ever-increasing preparations for the Next War, now lost their balance precisely when it seemed that all their hard work was being rewarded. Yet it is easy to understand why: For the Siberian and Tibetan fronts, into which the Romans yet again poured blood and treasure, were secondary theatres on the scale of the War of Continents; and when Bavarian resistance on the distant Oder collapsed, New Byzantium - victories or no victories - was forced to make peace.

Defeat was not new to the Roman people, and might have been met by renewed determination to resist, to sacrifice, and to struggle. But to win, to see sons and fathers come home safe and bringing with them the captured weapons of their foes, and then nevertheless be forced to make concessions at the peace table, because of battles lost by foreign peoples on the other side of the world - this, finally, was unbearable. The human spirit will take only so much; and the Roman state was not a dictatorship, with sacrifice and austerity enforced by secret police and informers. Its discipline rested on consensus and peer pressure, in keeping with its own self-image as a society of free citizens who just happened all to be fanatically devoted to the same goal. Now, at last, that dam broke. The extreme 'consensus' the Romans had maintained proved, in the end, to be brittle as glass. A few dissenters willing to brave the disapproving looks and the hushes were sufficient. In the end, the Romans really were free citizens of a republic: Once each one realised that they were not alone in resentment, once it was shown that such things could be spoken in public without the sky falling, established custom broke like a mirror under a sledgehammer. Bereaved parents openly admitted that they would rather have their sons back than public honour; veterans spoke of their outrage at seeing their sacrifices wasted.

The sumptuary laws were the first to go; it was impossible to enforce laws that half the population deliberately flouted. Their actual repeal was spearheaded by Ascetics who realised that restrictions on clothing and jewelry as such had become purely symbolic, and willing to sacrifice the symbol in exchange for maintaining the substance of respect for the law. But this was just the initial skirmish. Next, a substantial body of young men refused to volunteer for military service. Here was a substantive issue, and one that could not be fought on the principle of written law; for the Komnenoi had made a point of not formally conscripting anyone. Military service was theoretically voluntary; it was enforced by custom, expectation, and the fact that no respectable family would marry its daughters to a man who had not served. But this line, too, fell with the instantness of ice cracking in the spring melt: When half a dozen families of equestrian rank announced the military strike together (some of them, it should be noted, quite ignoring that their sons actually wished to serve!) they could not all be ostracised - if nothing else, there were enough of them that they could simply intermarry among themselves, thus avoiding the final sanction. Again, the Ascetics yielded what they could not hold: They realised that they could not afford to split the Komnenoi into those whose sons served, and those who didn't. Thus they retreated to the higher ground of Roman unity and one rule for all, hoping that in time the bitterest disappointment would fade and military service would regain its near-compulsory character.

In this they were not to be wholly disappointed; for the fact remained that the Roman Khanate was surrounded on all sides by aggressive powers, and that Roman rule was in the final analysis maintained by force. A state which included a crumbling frontier with such a power as Russia, which had to defend against raids out of the Tibetan highlands, and whose own subject peoples regarded horse-stealing as a cross between national pastime and the only proper way to make a living, could not become pacifist. But neither could the high tension of previous decades, the instant readiness to drop everything and wage total war with every man, horse, and speck of gunpowder, be recaptured. The Komnenoi had asked too much of themselves, and the younger generation repudiated the aim of vengeance against Persia (and Russia, and Tibet...) with an almost audible sigh of relief.

Yet it was one thing to end the custom of public fanaticism; it was quite another to decide what was actually to be done. The Roman state still faced intractable border problems and powerful enemies; when even victory in the field was insufficient, what course should the state take? In these circumstances, combined with the sudden loosening of all the old austere customs, it is not surprising that many in New Byzantium turned to the opposite end of the spectrum; as always in times of great uncertainty, "eat and drink and be merry" was a popular slogan, "for tomorrow we may die". True decadence was not to be achieved in a few short years, but by the standards of 1560, New Byzantium in 1580 was one with Sodom and Gomorrah - nor did there lack Ascetics to predict that it would soon be one with Nineveh and Tyre.

Nor, perhaps, were their predictions entirely unjustified. What would be the fate of a second-rank power in the face of Russian expansion and Tibetan imperialism? Militarism had failed to provide an answer; but those who rebelled against complete submission to the State had no positive policy to put in its place. Not for nothing did the peace treaty, formally the Treaty of Jaipur, come to be known in New Byzantium as the Death of Hope.


(*) Since the Greek population at New Byzantium are all considered 'Komnenoi' whatever their actual bloodline (and through interbreeding they are most of them descended in part from one of the male Komnenoi who joined the Long March), they have taken up patronymics to distinguish men of the same given name.

-----------------------------------------------------------​

Some battles of the War of the Continents. First, Roman legions crushing Russian armies. Roman victoglory, yeah!



Then, Tibet. Terrain malus be damned!



It worked, too. Tibet lacks the manpower to really fight a war of attrition. But as you can see from the peace discussion, it didn't really matter by this stage.



Tibet's armies were collapsing at this stage. Unfortunately Bavaria surrendered first.

 

Mad_bugger

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It's a bit easier to kill inflation than it once was, given that masters of mint can be recruited on demand. And as Sid says, there's the buildings to consider; in IN being fought over had no lasting effects on the value of a province since buildings and such would stay as the province changed hands, but that's no longer true in DW.
Croatia ran up quite a bit of inflation (3%) and went into debt (about 2k deep to Russia and another 2k loan) to feed its war machine. After a couple of decades of war, most of Italy and Austria conquered, Croatia has zero inflation and zero debt. In fact Catalunya owes Croatia 2k ducats. Over the next decade, Croatia will be able to trade in foreign markets again which would raise GDP by an estimated 45-50%.

Concerning the wars in Europe.

While valid points have been made, the primary reason the Spanish failed is because they lacked Military Drill.

Croatia's responsibility in the war was to capture the mountains west of Austria and threaten the soft German underbelly while the Russians hammered the Germans along the Oder. When the German army took flight, the Croatia's would push from the south and annihilate defensive German armies no longer being led by the German High Command. Once the German armies were wiped (typically 40-60k), Croatia would turn west to the still mustering Spanish armies in northern Italy. The Russians would pursue and wipe the bulk of the German forces in a race to the Rhine while Croatian armies annihilated all the Spanish armies in Lombardia (typically 100-150k).

The "Allies" were doomed from the onset of the Grand Conflict.

1) They failed to adequately convert economic strength into military strength. Germany and Spain were economic powerhouses. As Sid has pointed out, if they had focused as much effort into their military, as the Russians and Croatians did, the results may have been different.

2) They did not want to fight. After the first war, Bavaria surrendered three provinces to Russia and offered to buy them back for a substantial amount of ducats (13k roughly). Russia spent some of it on augmenting their military strength, and the rest to bribe another power to attack Spain in advance of the next war. The Allies failed to realize that the first war was the beginning of a broader power play.

3) They lacked initiative. It seemed like they did not plan on forcing a result. Their plan was to fight defensively, absorb blows, then force a white peace. The flaw in this plan was their inability to grasp how dedicated Russia and Croatia was to winning this struggle.

4) They did not change their strategy. Each war played out the same way. Russia hurls itself at Germany along the Oder. Croatia moves into the Mountains. Spain musters in Occitain/Western Lombardia. Russia breaks the German lines along the Oder. Croatia annihilates German armies in Southern Germany then turns and annihilates Spanish armies in Northern Italy. Russia annihilates the bulk of German forces along the Rhine.

5) At no time did the Allies develop or execute a plan to achieve local superiority. The Germany army was stretched along a broad front and the Spanish failed to project enough strength in Italy. In every section of the line where there was heavy fighting, the allies lacked numerical superiority. They tried to be everywhere. As a result they defended nothing and lost everything.

When the last war started, I almost expected a massive push from Germany and Spain along the Italian front. 500k Allied troops smashing into Croatian positions south of Austria, sending me reeling back into the Balkans. This probably would have forced Russia to divert forces south, or rush its push into eastern Germany with 500k Allied troops threatening its southern flank and an ally about to collapse (as Spain would have started minor seaborne invasions of Greece). Italy would have been completely cut off. The initiative would have completely swung to side of the Allies.

Of course, that's not what happened.
 
Last edited:

Sid Meier

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I think the lack of military drill is part of the proof of my thesis of deliberate sabotage ^_^
 

Ccbasin

Worst MP Player Ever!!
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Sep 10, 2003
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So, I hope I can ask you guys a question. I dont have DW and havent played. Is it really better than HttT?? Just from observation, it seems manpower and gold are much more prevalent than in HttT. Does this make the MP part of the game better??

Thanks for answers.
 

OrangeYoshi

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Mar 6, 2009
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So, I hope I can ask you guys a question. I dont have DW and havent played. Is it really better than HttT?? Just from observation, it seems manpower and gold are much more prevalent than in HttT. Does this make the MP part of the game better??

Thanks for answers.
Yes, yes, yes, and yes.
 
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