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    Real Strategy Requires Cunning
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King of Men

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What does the origin of the unit have to do with their combat performance again?
What Blayne said, and what I also said in the post just before yours: My landtech was 16 (ish) at the time, while Bavaria's was above 18. (As for Punjab, the less said the better.) Apart from the shock multipliers, which don't change so rapidly in this regime, this means that Bavaria had twice our Tactics modifier, which means he would take half the damage all else equal - which of course it wasn't. Pile terrain and a good general on top of that, and you get a massive defeat.
 

Irsh Faq

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Land 18 also allows significantly upgraded infantry for the Latin group, which is probably not quite as important as the tactics but still a powerful advantage.

The reason KOM doesn't want to talk about Punjabi land tech is because it was about 10 during the war, way behind every other participant (and every other played nation save Gujarat).
 

Irsh Faq

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Today the Ethiopian Ministry of Statistics would like to present: all played (or potentially played, in the case of Bengal) countries in the world ranked according to land and naval forcelimits. This is a fairly good measure of how large an army and navy any state can afford to build in the short to medium term - in the long term these will change a lot depending on buildings and ideas. But for now while forcelimits can be exceeded mildly, nobody can go too far past them without pain.

Land forcelimits:

Bavaria 292
Catalunya 284
Novgorod 280
Croatia 160
England 160
Persia 112
Ethiopia 103
Mongol Khanate 103
Kongo 93
Tripoli 71
Japan 70
Qin 67
Gujarat 58
Punjab 57
USA 54
Tibet 51
Khmer 42
Malaya 36*
Quebec 35
Bengal 23

Naval forcelimits:

Catalunya 175
Japan 100
Ethiopia 96
USA 93
Tripoli 72
England 68
Malaya 55*
Kongo 48
Croatia 46
Khmer 42
Qin 35
Bavaria 31
Mongol Khanate 27
Gujarat 26
Bengal 26
Novgorod 20
Persia 18
Punjab 9
Tibet 2
Quebec 1

Malayan numbers are not representative, as the endsave has several provinces that revolted away after Malaya was left braindead, and will be edited back.
 

Gollevainen

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Well I must say that the conversion that weightes the provinces with the ammount of time they have been "yours" is basicly making wars non-practical. DW itself allready makes one thinking twice over the conquering spiral, adding even more proplems to them is not going to improve things at all. (expecially when Europe entered into Eu3 in the diplomatical situation that they did)
But, then again, we really cannot discuss about our conversion and its twists (based solely on some personalities) without moderators coming to bark, so oh well then :(
 

Ccbasin

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Well I must say that the conversion that weightes the provinces with the ammount of time they have been "yours" is basicly making wars non-practical. DW itself allready makes one thinking twice over the conquering spiral, adding even more proplems to them is not going to improve things at all. (expecially when Europe entered into Eu3 in the diplomatical situation that they did)
No offense Golle but wars seem very practical to me. :) Considering the constant wars happening in Asia as the Euros press their advantage, the benefits seem, to this peanut, to outweigh anything else right now.

Plus, the Asians are put in a bad spot. If they dont help their fellows and instead join the feeding frenzy, will they be next up on the menu??
 

Mr. Capiatlist

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I said I'd close it, I said I was tired of the fighting and complaining. So now it is closed. I might open it back up in a while (read: might), let everyone's engines cool down.
 

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Thread reopened. Let's not get into any heated debates in this thread in the foreseeable future, alright? If you have problems with another player use your other thread in the EU3-Multiplayer subforum and leave this thread for AAR-updates and friendly and on-topic conversation.
 

oddman

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It's analysis day today! What are we looking at?

In the world today, one country's defense budget is greater than the rest of them combined (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_budget). In our simulated world, no one is that massively more powerful than everyone else, fortunately - in our simulated world, there is some semblance of balance. For your information, I will share an analysis of the Day of Glory's military budgets, both in absolute sense as in proportion to the nation's total income.

So, without further ado, the numbers. First, the absolute military expenditure (army + navy):
Code:
Catalunya (Oddman)	1095.76*
Bavaria (Fivoin)	893.962*
Qin (Blayne) 		743.225*
Croatia (OY)		494.102*
England (Golle)		463.058*
Ethiopia (IrshFaq)	319.458
Kongo (Fasq)		288.992
KoMgol Khanate		268.729
Nippon(Cho)		252.768
Tripoli (Ike)		233.025
Novgorod (vR)		223.785
Tibet (Anders)		211.664
Khmer (Sqwrl)		168.696
Persia (Foels)		145.51
Timurids (Carb)		113.796
Bengal (elzilcho)	108.106
Gujarat (Suirantes)	103.455
Maya (Dano)		69.177
Huron (Falador)		38.117
Malaysia (Elcyion)	0.0
Nations marked with an asterisk are or have recently been at war or converted.

This in and of itself is not very enlightening. There is a clear correlation with national income; richer nations have larger armies. It is interesting to note that the power with the largest army (Novgorod) is halfway down the list; these numbers represent money spent on upkeep in the last year, and Novgorod's low numbers mean they probably had their upkeep slider at minimum, whereas Bavaria, for instance, is smacking Catholics around and Catalunya was eating Incas (and supporting the world's largest fleet). Vassals (and Gujarat) have tiny militaries. Qin and Croatia are probably over some support limits, since they spend rather more than their size would indicate. Let the next list of numbers illuminate that further.

This list shows the percentage of GDP spent on military maintenance.

Code:
Qin (Blayne)		37.35
Khmer (elzilcho)	14.40
KoMgol Khanate		13.89
Bengal (Falahk)		11.97
Croatia (OY)		11.73
Nippon(Cho)		11.11
Catalunya (Oddman)	10.03
Tripoli (Ike)		9.18
Timurids (Carb)		9.13
England (Golle)		8.92
Kongo (Fasq)		8.83
Bavaria (Fivoin)	8.73
Gujarat (Suirantes)	8.47
Ethiopia (IrshFaq)	7.37
Persia (Foels)		6.51
Tibet (Anders)		6.28
Novgorod (vR)		4.83
Huron (Falador)		2.92
Maya (Dano)		2.14
Malaysia (Elcyion)	0.0
Holy shit, Blayne! What happened? Are you, like, being attacked by half of Europe or something? How far over the support limit are you? Also: the AI is aggressive, since Khmer has been AI this session. Most nations fall between something like 10 and 5%; more is generous, less is stingy. Which does not necessarily mean a small military: vR, for example, has mundo military ideas and NDs, which makes his army cheap for its size. Otherwise, a decent indicator of the priority the military has to the nation - and perhaps an indicator of whether the nation is land or sea or both.
 

King of Men

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Flowing Like Water

Children of the fertile lands often think of the Khanate in terms of steppe, of grassland: A featureless plain, stretching boringly empty to the horizon, with only the occasional herd of horses to lend it interest. And it is true, even in a land that stretches from the Ural Mountains to the Pacific, that much of it is taken up by such plateaus; and it is not unknown for outsiders to find the sight of them disorienting to the point of dizziness - even to fall down in vertigo at the complete lack of any reference point, and to cry out in joy at the tiniest stunted tree or the most minor rise in the ground.

Georgos of the Komnenoi knows better. In his twenty years, he has thrice ridden the circuit from New Byzantium to the Caspian Sea; he has seen all that the Khanate has to offer. Mountains to rival any in the world, deep forests that stretch for hundreds of miles, lakes larger than some bodies of water that the untravelled call 'seas', and, yes, miles upon miles of steppe and taiga. And even within the steppe proper, as he would point out if anyone asked, there is endless variety, and no lack of feature: The tiny changes of hue that signal water nearby, the little dust-puffs that herald a storm, the fields of gopher holes that riders must avoid lest a horse's leg be broken. The idea of a featureless plain would be incomprehensible to him, who has lived in it all his years.

If the endless stretch of dry grass is a false image, what then of the other thing that most outsiders know about the Khanate: That its rulers, the Komnenoi, burn for vengeance and a return to Rome? Is that also a mirage, an unfair simplification? A fair question; but in turning from geography and biology to the motivations of men, we enter the realms of the subtle, the labyrinthine, and the hard-to-answer. Turning again to Georgos, we find that, of a certainty, he hates the Persians with a passion, and will gladly tell you so if you ask him. Along with the others of his tribe, he cries full-throatedly "Death to Persia" at the yearly recital of the wrongs done to the Romans and not yet repaid; is not this the custom? (And is it not a rare man who will break the custom of his tribe, whatever the strength of his own feelings?) And yet - it is also true that Georgos has never in his life seen a Persian, and that, if he should meet one, he is too much the warrior - conscious always of the nearness of death - to draw his weapons and kill without provocation, as his ritual shouts might imply.

For, if the truth were told, the Komnenoi have closer enemies, these days, than far-off Persia. There is no Roman now living whose grandfathers fought at Jvris Ugheltekhili, though a few grey-bearded ancients can recall hearing tales of the Long March from men who spent their childhoods on the trail. As for doomed Nicaea, or the still-more-distant towers of the City of Men's Desire, they are as well remembered and as much thought of as lost Troy and seven-hilled Rome. Over such a gulf of time - a single century! - human purpose flows like water. The men who fled Anatolia shone with diamond-edged, flame-forged will; in them the single dominant urge was to return to their lost estates, and their every effort bent to that all-consuming idea. Their sons were willing enough to conquer a steppe realm, to become a power in the land, "for the purpose of defeating Persia"; when have men been unwilling to fight for wealth and fame? And their sons, in turn... proved willing to administer what they had won, to work as judges and soldiers and advisors to the tribes that acknowledge Komnenoi sovereignty, and to build upon their fathers' legacy. And to shout "Death to Persia" once a year is no great trouble, and men need rituals almost as much as they need bread and salt; if ritual is all that remains of the once-heartfelt outpouring of hate... well, there is nobody now alive to remember the terror of fleeing from Persian armies with only what you could carry on your back, and notice the difference.

Georgos of the Komnenoi claims, with pride, to be a citizen of Rome, and he is well suited to his station. Can he not ride and shoot and wield the lance with the best of his generation? Has he not thrice ridden the circuit, and given judgements in the disputes of the tribes that have been upheld even in the High Court at New Byzantium? Has he not learned by heart the text of the Three Great Grievances, and recited them to shouting crowds at the yearly celebrations? These are the not the accomplishments of a common tribesman, of the merely equestrian ranks; Georgos is the son of a Senator, and will himself become a Senator in turn. The forms are observed at New Byzantium, the traditions of millennia are maintained, although the content is changed nearly beyond recognition. But as for riding to war with Persia to avenge the Long March, it is not likely. The Khanate has no border with Persia, and a grudge cannot be kept burning for a hundred years, when there is no source of fresh oppression to keep it hot.

And yet men do not like to be inconsistent, to have their deeds not match their words. True, Georgos bears no personal animosity towards any Aryan noble, however much his mother frightened him as a child with those terrible bogeymen. He has fought Russians, Germans, and rebel tribes; for these he can muster a healthy sense of vengeance, of desiring retribution for dead comrades and hard days. If you asked him to list the reasons he might go to war, the slow, steady push of Russian settlements from the west would come up in his mind before the long-ago conquest of Anatolia. But a man who shouts "Death to Persia" and can recite the Three Great Grievances does not need much of an excuse for war, if even a slight opportunity presents itself - he already has one ready made. Georgos does not feel such hatred for Persia as his great-grandfather did, that he would make war for its own sake, as a point of vengeance. But his ritual is not empty; it cannot be. Let there be even a small thing to be gained from such a war, and Georgos will go to with a will.

The pure flame of vengeance cannot burn for centuries. But even its ashes are poisonous seeds for war.
 

Thirdfain

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You've got 3 games and probably another year of gameplay until the end of the megacampaign, KoM, and I don't doubt you'll stick with it to the bitter end- but if you fail to retake Constantinople and crush the Persians, you will know regardless of what other victories you've won or plots you've brought to fruition that you have lost the game.
 

King of Men

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It is of course quite possible that the Komnenoi will lose, just as it was always possible for the Ynglings to lose. As I said a while back, Calliope (muse of epic poetry) loves a protagonist and will see that they win; but Clio (muse of history) loves only the big battalions. Just at the moment, of course, vR is standing between me and Persia, and looking very big and Russian with his 280 jackbooted regiments of dull-eyed conscript peasants and wild Cossacks. :D

but if you fail to retake Constantinople
That's not gonna happen.
You're quite right, I won't fail.
 

Jakalo

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You're quite right, I won't fail.
You sir may not regain the Endless City back or exact your revenge against the Shamshirs and Saifs, but you have already won for who are Arminius but a fabled rebel against the Roman Empire. What are Persia but a Nemesis to the Rome. What are Carthage remembered for if not for its adversary to Roman Republic. Would we even know what Alaric first of his name was if there was no Rome?
Rome is not just a place anymore, nor has Constantinople replaced it for Rome is where its citizens are, where the ancient law still rules even if in the spirit of the law but not the letter.
 

Irsh Faq

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Rome is not just a place anymore, nor has Constantinople replaced it for Rome is where its citizens are, where the ancient law still rules even if in the spirit of the law but not the letter.
Croatia? :D
 

Thirdfain

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von_Rundstedt

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Maybe you'll win, but it will be seen as a defeat for the Romans, not a victory for you.
I should point out, Russia holds the fortress city protecting the Bosporus, once known as Constantinople. I do not intend for that to change.
 

King of Men

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I'm reading Churchill's memoirs, and have gotten to where France is about to fall and the Dunkirk evacuation is under way. Says Churchill,

Churchill said:
I was sure that every Minister was ready to be killed quite soon, and to have all his family and possessions destroyed, rather than give in. In this they represented the House of Commons and almost all the people. [...] There was a white glow, overpowering, sublime, which ran through our island from end to end.
Now, it is perhaps permissible to doubt just how much of this white glow was actually experienced by any given factory worker getting up at five in the morning. But even if they felt it, say while listening to Churchill snarling defiance on the radio or seeing bombers overhead, a white defiant glow does not a victory make. No doubt there was defiance in Belgium too, which had just capitulated; and as for what the German soldiers felt in 1943, when they were being driven back on every front and yet they kept fighting for two years, I can't imagine. (Indeed, it puzzles me greatly: What the devil did the German soldiers think they were fighting for, in 1943 and onwards? Some sort of negotiated peace?) Just because you have an inspiring story in which you are the defiant hero, does not mean you are going to win. There have been thousands of defiant last stands that ended in "and the men having died, the women were kept as slaves for the rest of their days; and their names are forgotten". No doubt the Amalekites, the Philistines, and the Midianites had a story to tell too, of heroic resistance against the invader; who knows, perhaps there was a "white sublime glow" when they went out to fight. "And Israel warred against the Midianites, as the LORD commanded Moses; and they slew all the males. And they slew the kings of Midian, beside the rest of them that were slain; namely, Evi, and Rekem, and Zur, and Hur, and Reba, five kings of Midian: Balaam also the son of Beor they slew with the sword. And the children of Israel took all the women of Midian captives, and their little ones, and took the spoil of all their cattle, and all their flocks, and all their goods. And they burnt all their cities wherein they dwelt, and all their goodly castles, with fire."

History, perhaps, may not always be written by the victors; sometimes a neutral scholar will come along, long after there can be any taking sides in the conflict, and poke among the charred ruins, and try to understand why they fought. But epic poetry about defending the last ditch is never written by the losing side.
 

Willum

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But epic poetry about defending the last ditch is never written by the losing side.
Depends whether you view Josepos as being on the losing side or not... I would say his depiction of the Jewish campaign has an epic character, a futile struggle that the losers refused to surrender. Not only Mazada, which has become a legend in its own right, but also the siege of Jerusalem, and even the siege Yodfat carries great dramatic wheight, and although it is a story of defeat, of cruelty and internal bickering, it is ultimately a story of defiance.

Of course this is history rather than poetry, but the ancients did not (generally) see those as two in their nature different things, but as two different media or styles.
 
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