Danzing or War: Danzing ? Should this be possible?

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podcat

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The thesis of Adam Tooze's "The Wages of Destruction" is that Germany would have gone bankrupt sooner rather than later, if they had not started the war. They needed the plunder of the central banks, the access to the raw materials, and there were some additional benefits that we are not supposed to discuss on this forum, that drove the need to attack.

This lack of economic pressure is what missing from the HOI series, partially due to the ability of pre-war stockpiling, and partially to prevent cheesy strategies in multi-player, where Germany is boycotted from day 1.

Germany simply has to go to war, sooner rather than later, or its economy will collapse. A more or less identical situation exists for Japan.

Germany in 1939 had 99% employment and its industrial output became 2-nd largest in the world slightly behind USA( in 1933 it was 8 places below).

yeah but their 99% employment rate was based on basically running a war economy for quite a while, as Pier said its not something that can really last without a war. Darkrenown read the book he mentioned last week I think it was and said it was boring as hell but very good information :D


Im sure the nazi goverment would try all they could to take the rest of Poland, but they already have Danzig. they promised to respect Poland territorial Integrity. not even the Nazis would be such dicks would they? :ninja:

They were such dicks and its a big reason they managed to get so much stuff without a big power stepping in. Country leaders and major diplomats just didnt expect Hitler to lie them in the face about major stuff like that.
 

L'Afrique

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The Allies should've just given Hitler Danzig... and Silesia... and let's just say Poland... and Ukraine... and Belarus... and the Baltic States... and Alsace... and the Caucasus... and Moscow. Damn warmongering allies. Hitler merely wanted a regional war.

In fact, I doubt he wanted that. He just knew that the craven, lying, insidious poles and soviets would refuse his reasonable demands for them all to resettle east of the Urals. Poland is the real villain, here.
 

Secret Master

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I am not sure how much effort is going to be put into making ahistorical options like this. It is something that they have implied they intend to make, but it really seems to be too much ground to cover. If only a single major event is altered in some way, it changes everything that follows. How will all of this work?

I'm not sure how much effort will be put into ahistorical options, either.

But I am pointing out that the Danzig Crisis is a very complicated issue. It is complicated beyond "Would Hitler have made additional demands on Poland or annexed her outright if he got his way with Danzig?" Some folks see German claims on Danzig as a two body problem (Germany versus Allies). Some people see it as a three body problem (Poland-Germany-Allies). Some people think about it as a four body problem (Germany-Poland-France-Britain). Some people even see it as a five body problem (Germany-Poland-France-Britain-Italy). But it is, in fact, as 246 body problem (Germany-Poland-France-Britain-Italy-Japan-Soviet Union...) The climate of Europe in 1937-1940 was so volatile that we see tons of ultimatums and politicking in the instability Germany created, some of them having Polish participation. After all, Poland got a small territorial award in First Vienna Award (a historical event I first learned about in HOI3 when I saw Poland unexpectedly expand the first time I ran First Vienna Award) and issued an ultimatum to Lithuania in 1938 to which Lithuania acquiesced, things that wouldn't have been possible if Europe had been more stable. And that's just Poland. You start looking at things from the Soviet side of the equation, and Stalin has tons of options to expand Soviet power and influence, even if the M-R Pact never happens. British and French actions in the lead up to Danzig were historically watched very closely by Stalin, and I can imagine even slight changes in their policy throughout 36-39 having a substantial impact on Soviet policy.

In other words, the ultimatum over Danzig doesn't take place in a vacuum. German behavior and Soviet behavior make it possible that the same historical event occurs (Germany issues an ultimatum to Poland), but the geo-political landscape of Europe is different enough to make the choices available to Poland, Britain, and France very different.

And HOI3 does kind of model this. In older versions, the Allies never cared about Soviet threat, and the Soviets could annex or puppet anyone without consequences. Then the AI was changed; Britain would attack the Soviets if they were not already at war with Germany and if Soviet threat was too high. This was great, because not only closed an exploit, but it also gave the AI a historical reaction to ahistorical actions taken by a player. But the catch is that if First Vienna Award had already fired, Britain will ally with Poland, no matter what wars or crises are happening with the Soviets. So, WWII kind of starts on autopilot even if the Soviets have changed the equation.

I know the game can't come close to simulating everything, but I do hope that seminal events like Danzig or Munich are handled in a slightly less binary way, especially now that Paradox's game technology and design has advanced since HOI3 originally came out.

And it is kind of sad that some people consider Hitler a pragmatic politician. I mean starting a world war was only his second largest crime and his second most irrational decision.

I consider Hitler and Bismark to be the exact opposites of each other in terms of how they run politics and diplomacy. Bismark was no doubt spinning in his grave during the 30s.
 
E

EmperorTojo

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Polish foreign policy pre-1939 as a whole was incoherent and disorganised. Heck, they even participated in the First Vienna Award!

They 'participated' in the first vienna award, but they were highly negative of Germany's annextion of Czechoslovakia. What they did was to occupy a polish-speaking region of Czechoslovakia, as they did not want it to fall under German hands. The poles had no particular agreement with the germans when they did this, but their ultimatum was accepted by the czechoslovakian state. I think this incident even upset relations between Germany and Poland since Hitler wished for a particular railroad which was now under Polish possession, but I am not sure of that.

Speaking of apologists, and I have mentioned it before, but it is pretty depressing what kind of crowd this title attracts. This game could very well be a wet dream come true for some special minded people..
 

Phi

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Except in reality Germany did not start a world war, Britain and France did. Germany started a local conflict with Poland and Britain's and France's involvement magnified it to the world war proportions. Hitler did not want to have a world war, or at least not at that time which could be seen by Germany offering several peace offerings to Britain which they declined.

If France and the UK guarantee Poland and Germany attacks Poland, then Germany did start the war with France, the UK, and Poland. You can not blame the Allies for upholding their guarantees. You could blame them for ignoring the reoccupation of the Rhineland and for ignoring their guarantee of Czechoslovakia, but even in this cases Germany would have started the war, since the consequences were pretty clear. On a side note: In the case of Munich, a war then would have triggered an (hopefully successful) coup d'etat by the september conspiracy which might have shortend WW2 significantly. But this would make a boring game ...

Furthermore, you are repeating the revisionist lie that Hitler made peace offers which were more than propaganda.
 

Phi

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They were such dicks and its a big reason they managed to get so much stuff without a big power stepping in. Country leaders and major diplomats just didnt expect Hitler to lie them in the face about major stuff like that.

The other countries assumed that Germany would act rational, pragmatic, and in its own self-interest. Even Chamberlain noticed his delusion after Germany annexed Czechoslovakia.
 

TheRomanRuler

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Hm....



It is difficult to trust someone advocating 'good' fascism in his signature. I am sure you think you know the 'true story' and everyone else is a fool, but I am not convinced at all.
What is wrong with Facism as ideology? And i am not Facist (or any sub catergory) so no biases there. In 1930s it worked better than capitalism and communism, and it collapsed becouse of war, not becouse of ideology itself. More is hard to say without lenghty debates. And what i am saying in my sig, is that it works well in theory, dunno about practice.


And i mean after Alsac-Lorraine, parts of Switzerland and Danzig Germany would have been satisfied in the west, conflict in east would have very likely happened sooner or later.
 

unmerged(162341)

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Some people still don't understand the basic truth.

Hitler said in Mein Kampf what he would do if he had the chance. He actually ended up trying to do EXACTLY as he said he would. So I feel it is relevant in knowing Hitler's basic reasoning.

As for "good fascism" and all that crap; let's leave that at the door when you come in here, please. Your ideas will be returned to you on the way out. Thank you.


Just remember that Hitler's intentions on display in "Mein Kampf " were well known and analyzed both in USSR and on the West before world war II.

It was clear to all what could be main Hitlers target, - East.

And the East was also communists.

Hitler was a beast, jet this beast got a chance to became monster due to West interests which sought him as an anticommunist dragon that could be directed to attack on the east, until to late, he got out of control.
 
Last edited:
E

EmperorTojo

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What is wrong with Facism as ideology? And i am not Facist (or any sub catergory) so no biases there. In 1930s it worked better than capitalism and communism, and it collapsed becouse of war, not becouse of ideology itself. More is hard to say without lenghty debates. And what i am saying in my sig, is that it works well in theory, dunno about practice.

Fascism isn't an economic system though. The ideology 'Fascism' didn't pull Germany out of the great depression, you can thank Hjalmar Schacht partially for that. There was not a requirement to be fascist to achieve the economic goals made by Germany during the 1930s. Fascism is really a perverted form of communism with nationalism and irredentism among others thrown into the mix. It is wrong in the sense that it was created as an aggressive ideology. Fascism may be anti-capitalist, but it relied on it.

Besides the inherent antisemitism, racism, militarism, surveillance, and lack of personal liberties? I don't know. Maybe the prosecution of any political opposition.

I'll give it to Mussolini that italians did not pursure antisemitism, although after 1943 that became a different story.
 

nikssims

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Besides the inherent antisemitism, racism, militarism, surveillance, and lack of personal liberties? I don't know. Maybe the prosecution of any political opposition.
What has fascism have to do with racism? Much of europe was fascist before ww2 but there wasnt much racism going on in those countries.
 

scroggin

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Anyone who thinks hitler would have been satisfied with danzig doesn't understand the nature of greed. Greed is never satisfied it just moves to the next object.
 
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EmperorTojo

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What has fascism have to do with racism? Much of europe was fascist before ww2 but there wasnt much racism going on in those countries.

Has to do a bit with Aryan race I believe; of course, this is not something Mussolini invented (which is arguably founder of fascism) but yeah.
 

Augustus93

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If France and the UK guarantee Poland and Germany attacks Poland, then Germany did start the war with France, the UK, and Poland. You can not blame the Allies for upholding their guarantees. You could blame them for ignoring the reoccupation of the Rhineland and for ignoring their guarantee of Czechoslovakia, but even in this cases Germany would have started the war, since the consequences were pretty clear. On a side note: In the case of Munich, a war then would have triggered an (hopefully successful) coup d'etat by the september conspiracy which might have shortend WW2 significantly. But this would make a boring game ...

Furthermore, you are repeating the revisionist lie that Hitler made peace offers which were more than propaganda.
No I had a book in Swedish which reported on every date during the second world war. Like a diary with lots of details and I remember clearly that Hitler or at least Germany proposed peace to UK during the first months of the war. And if I recall correctly then UK did not accept because they wanted Germany to retreat from Poland or something along those lines.
 

misterbean

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No I had a book in Swedish which reported on every date during the second world war. Like a diary with lots of details and I remember clearly that Hitler or at least Germany proposed peace to UK during the first months of the war. And if I recall correctly then UK did not accept because they wanted Germany to retreat from Poland or something along those lines.

In 1939, Hitler's political instincts were still very high. He knew that UK would not accept because they had not been beaten yet. After the Fall of France, he offered peace if Germany could keep some lands left and right because he knew the Free French would never accept. It's the same thing with Japan and China. At some point (I think 1937 or 1938), US offered to mediate between them. Japan said "yes" because they knew China would say "no".
 

Augustus93

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In 1939, Hitler's political instincts were still very high. He knew that UK would not accept because they had not been beaten yet. After the Fall of France, he offered peace if Germany could keep some lands left and right because he knew the Free French would never accept. It's the same thing with Japan and China. At some point (I think 1937 or 1938), US offered to mediate between them. Japan said "yes" because they knew China would say "no".
White peace maybe?
 

Imaginary Star

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Heh, actually my preferred strategy in HOI3 was to leave Poland alone, while drawing them into axis -with pressure from other nations this keeps them neutral. Eventually USSR declares war, but they have a huge Polish buffer in their way. This eventually pushes Poles into Axis fold, but before I let them in, I mass all the armies along the border, with armoured spearheads in East Prussia and east of Czechoslovakia.
Poles enter Axis, and immediately get invaded by massed Soviet armies.
I wait till Poles are crushed, and launch a massive counterattack, cutting the massive Soviet force from north(Prussia) and south (Czech) off. If done correctly, 80% of the Red army ends up suddenly surrounded in the middle of enemy territory. Caput.
And the Ost Front becomes a cakewalk.
 
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