Daimyo=clan leader?

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Question about terminology. Isn't Daimyo same thing as clan leader?
Tokugawa Ieyasu was Daimyo, so was Oda Nobunaga. I haven't
never read that there was other Daimyos under example Tokugawa Ieyasu,
there was just other Daimyos who pledge allegiance to Tokugawa.
Example quote from Osprey Elite 125 Samurai Commanders 940-1576:
"Often they are Daimyo (feudal lords)"

 

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In Sengoku you have three types of titles from lowest.

Kokujin, you can call it such county title from medieval Europe. Every province is one kokujin title.
Next step is Daimyo, than you control kokujins that merged are one of the historical japan lands, than you get that title. Its like duchy.
Last step is Clan Leader, you can call it kingdom. Ofc you can be Clan Leader without Daimyo title, or even rule as one single kokujin province.

Some provinces, for example islands have Daimyo and kokujin title in one. Some Daimyo provinces are bigger, one smaller. One have 8, other only 4. All you can check in map mode, near minimap - "show provinces".

 

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In Sengoku yes, but how about real history?
I mean why developers chose clan leader-term if there isn't
historic base for it?

 

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In Sengoku yes, but how about real history?
I mean why developers chose clan leader-term if there isn't
historic base for it?

Because every lord in Japan had title of daimyo, even daimyo Oda Nobunaga (first "uniter" of Japan) had under self minor daimyo lords. So to game must be add something higher than normal daimyo title to full this empty space. Because in original higher title of daimyo was only shogun and emperor. Rest was only titulature of emperor court, such only prestige and represenative title but without power.

 

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Empty space? If Daimyo was the clan leader why developers didn't use it as it was and use
example Fudai or general or Karō as sup-ordinate to Daimyo?

 

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They just choose such way because it was more logic for game creator. For me its not so big lie, for me clan leader is just meaning of some clan independence. If clan is not independent they are not clan leaders.

In game smallest cell is "kori" such county like I say earlier. So for them is kokujin title, and this is OK - such high samurai landlord.
One "kori" for example islands, or more "kori" are forming japanease "kuni" as province and for them are daimyo - and this is also OK for me. Why? Because as clan lader you collect titles from every kuni you control. So in practic you can be daimyo of Owari, Daimyo of Goto, Daimyo of Kii etc. And there was such titulature some close to our European, that people say every of title had they master. Like in Europe was Duke of Silesia, Duke of Pommerania, Duke of Wales etc. And as CLAN LEADER you can grant daimyo title of such kuni to your vassal. And its historical true. He was clan leader? He was. Every of kuni represent daimyo title? They do. So its for me all OK.

Fudai title is later invention of Tokugawa shoguns from what I read. And "Karo" was just advisors, in game you had them just as "advisors" choosen from court. And generals, army leaders are choosen from your advisors. Shame that you cant have only normal generals. Like 12 generals of Oda.

Only in Shogun Total War, clan leaders was equal to daimyo title. But in reality they was not for example "Daimyo of Hojo clan" Only they was daimyo of provinces they own. In Total War series there is no feudal ledder.

Its only my opinion, and Im not lawyer of Paradox. But for me this system have good logic. Maybe because my history knowledge of Japan is less than European.

 

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So you just told me that clan leader and Daimyo aren't basically same thing?
Doeing so you just wrote that people like Stephen Turnbull, Anthony Bryant
and Pierre Souyri don't know what they have studying.

Fudai title is later invention of Tokugawa shoguns from what I read. And "Karo" was just advisors, in game you had them just as "advisors" choosen from court. And generals, army leaders are choosen from your advisors.

You are taking me too literally. Like I wrote those were just examples for titles that are below Daimyo. It's just that when developers
use two words that are technically same thing, it makes me wonder is it gameplay thing or is it just mistake they made accidentally.

 

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So you just told me that clan leader and Daimyo aren't basically same thing?
Doeing so you just wrote that people like Stephen Turnbull, Anthony Bryant
and Pierre Souyri don't know what they have studying.

Maybe its because my bad english. I try more simple and on example. I mean that you have for example clan of Hojo. They leaders had title of daimyo, not because they lead clan only because they control few "kuni" that give them right to call himself as daimyo. Because such head of clan is daimyo of Musashi, Sagami and Izu. But also his vassals who was under him, and who in his name control that kuni was also called daimyo in original. So for diffrence this senior daimyo from lower daimyo to game mechanic be more clear they propably put that "clan leader" title. As this top and independent daimyo ruler who unite clan under his power. Maybe this will be more clear.

Its ofc simplification to game mechanic, like it was in Crusader Kings. Theory of gameplay is not same to reality, they only put some facts in logic direction. Because for example feudal system in Holly Roman Empire, Poland or in England had other feudal system titles, and in some countries was titles that in other country dont exist. So for game mechanic must be some simplification.

 

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Ok. Thanks for answers.
Maybe member of development team could answer
"better" but this is enough for me.
And now lets move on. Next on our "I'm wondering" kind of thread:
Sengoku and the banned flag... I'm just kidding. Let's leave it for
other places.
Ten four.

 

[DarthJF]

I haven't
never read that there was other Daimyos under example Tokugawa Ieyasu,
there was just other Daimyos who pledge allegiance to Tokugawa.

Basically that's an abstraction of what "clan" in the game is. Clan in the game doesn't represent just the clan itself, but also all the vassal clans that have pledged themselves under that clan. Be it Yamana, Hosokawa or any other one. So for example Hosokawa and Yamana clans start the game with multiple daimyo vassals from other clans that are subordinate to them.