Dai Viet puzzle; how to do it?

[Hackworthy]

You mean the fact that it penalizes the player if they play 'wrong' unlike every other faith in the game?

Then no.

And I wouldn't hold my breath hoping for a change if I where you.

What do you mean by this? I've been too busy playing with the Free Cities to try Buddhism yet.

 

[Slayen]

What do you mean by this? I've been too busy playing with the Free Cities to try Buddhism yet.

I am referencing the fact that karma, unlike every single other religious mechanic (ie, piety, fervor, patriarchal authority, etc) will grant you only penalties should you manage it poorly.

In the case of most religions, manage it's mechanics mechanics well and get bonuses.
Manage it poorly and you get no bonuses.

In the case of the Buddhist religions, manage karma well and get bonuses.
Manage it poorly and you get no bonuses and slapped with a penalty to either your discipline or diplo rep depending.

 

[MiniaAr]

I am referencing the fact that karma, unlike every single other religious mechanic (ie, piety, fervor, patriarchal authority, etc) will grant you only penalties should you manage it poorly.

In the case of most religions, manage it's mechanics mechanics well and get bonuses.
Manage it poorly and you get no bonuses.

In the case of the Buddhist religions, manage karma well and get bonuses.
Manage it poorly and you get no bonuses and slapped with a penalty to either your discipline or diplo rep depending.

I like to play with karma, but I also acknowledge that your point has merits. Apparently, the devs do as well, as they decided to teak the mechanic with the next patch. Let's hope for future polishing of the religion.

I would however argue that meso-american religions (Inti, Mayan, Nahuatl) also have demanding mechanics that can become harmful if not well managed. Therefore, it's not completely new.

 

[Mauer]

That does remarkably little to actually fix the issue I have with the faith.
But for me, the fact that the Buddhist faiths are the only ones that will actually make you weaker that you would otherwise be as any other religion should you play the karma game the wrong way makes them un-fun to me and forces me to place an entire region that I had previously been considering diving into on the no-fly list.

Now, could I mod out the penalties. Certainly. And I may do so. But that does not change the fact that, in my opinion, the karma mechanic is, to put bluntly, bad in it's current state.

As with all things, this is just one man's opinion, and if you actually do like it than more power to you.

Well, I don't like Orthodox mechanics for example, so I don't tend to play Orthodox countries, I think it's all about tastes. That said, I do think it needs further tweaking, 25 for a war declaration is too much considering you also get bad karma for taking provinces, if you release nations or return cores you gain some good karma but all it does is even out what you lost of the declaration.

I wish there was an option to actively get good karma, you can't really rely on answering calls to arms. Maybe by giving gifts and guaranteeing countries, or increasing autonomy.

 

[Rainbow Mirage]

Have not played them in 1.12 yet, so its possible that this wont work

However what i would try is :
Improve relations with Ming from day 1.
Ally Ayutuya.
Attack Champa and eat them in one go.
Attack the Khmer and eat as much as you can (or if you want to go hindu, only take the hindu provinces).
After that attack Lan Xang and take what you can.

Try to keep Ming friendly and you should be good to go

This was pretty much my strategy last time i played Dai Viet (in 1.7). Not exactly sure if AoW/CS has changed the game so much that it wouldn't work now though.

 

[Slayen]

I like to play with karma, but I also acknowledge that your point has merits. Apparently, the devs do as well, as they decided to teak the mechanic with the next patch. Let's hope for future polishing of the religion.

I would however argue that meso-american religions (Inti, Mayan, Nahuatl) also have demanding mechanics that can become harmful if not well managed. Therefore, it's not completely new.

The meso-american ones are a real different duck in that their faiths are specifically tied to their ability to reform (and thus westernize).

That and once you have gotten the hang of them and passed all the reforms the penalties permanently cease to exist.

 

[neondt]

That does remarkably little to actually fix the issue I have with the faith.

If I am at -100, then all that does is move me to -75, which is equal to exactly One declaration of war.

Look, can people have success and even enjoy playing with the mechanics as they exist? I would have to be an arrogant fool to say no.

But for me, the fact that the Buddhist faiths are the only ones that will actually make you weaker that you would otherwise be as any other religion should you play the karma game the wrong way makes them un-fun to me and forces me to place an entire region that I had previously been considering diving into on the no-fly list.

Now, could I mod out the penalties. Certainly. And I may do so. But that does not change the fact that, in my opinion, the karma mechanic is, to put bluntly, bad in it's current state.

As with all things, this is just one man's opinion, and if you actually do like it than more power to you.

I don't enjoy the Buddhist mechanics either. The way I modded it was to reset karma to 0 on new ruler, and swap around the penalties for high/low karma. The reason for the second part is that the penalties are contradictory to the other mechanics in the game, like army tradition (you fight more, you get better at fighting) and aggressive expansion (not being aggressive makes countries hate you less). This contradiction makes Buddhism flat out worse than every other religion (except for animism and shamanism).

The idea that Buddhism could force you to play differently is a goal I understand and appreciate. We saw this done well and interestingly with the Mesoamerican religions - particularly Nahuatl. Before Westernising as Aztecs, the game plays very differently while still being engaging and challenging. I don't personally think the Buddhist mechanics vary the gameplay in an interesting or fun way.

Furthermore, I think the Karma mechanic is uninspired. It doesn't really reflect the history of Buddhist countries in the period (though many of the events related to it are very well researched, particularly the Theravada events about monastic links with Ceylon). Successful conquerors in south-east Asia, for example, were as venerated as they were in Europe or anywhere else in the world. Their armies didn't become somehow worse as a result of their greater experience in war. I'd compare it to giving Christians penalties for declaring wars on the grounds that Jesus taught pacifism. The mechanic seems thematically flimsy to me.

 

[Ame]

After having done 2 real playthroughs I have found the following.

1. It is possible to eventually ally ayuthaya (sp) at the start but you need luck; but it is worth restarting till you get the luck because it will make the difference between becoming a great power vs chow.

2. Colonialism is neat; so neat I tried the non-ayu ally game relying almost exclusively on it and making champa a vassal instead of conquering it. Big mistake. You will not colonize fast enough to have a large enough army/navy for your own defense; you will be too weak for anyone capable of helping you to want to be your ally and brunei is a big backstaber.

3. If you don't expand someone else will and it will be against you; so make yourself a great power directly. The adm point sacrifice is worth it the alternative is death.

4. You will lose out in adm tech; but it isn't the end of the world.

5. You get a lot of karmic events when in the middle ideal but go to either extreme and they become rare.

6. Fortunately the ai doesn't realize your doomstack is a paper tiger yet. I know this because my army should be targeted and slaughtered every war instead it rushes to help my allies win for me. Clearly the ai doesn't yet realize how badly karma has struck me.

7. Buddhism really is inferior to hindu; but hindiusm has debatable diplomatic potential in that part of the world; has anyone tried it yet?

 

[Zones]

What do you mean by this? I've been too busy playing with the Free Cities to try Buddhism yet.

The changes to Buddhism have basically given all Buddhist nations -10 discipline permanently.

There is some garbage being thrown around about how you can try to manage it but none of it sounds feasible from my time with Ayutthaya.

 

[neondt]

The changes to Buddhism have basically given all Buddhist nations -10 discipline permanently.

There is some garbage being thrown around about how you can try to manage it but none of it sounds feasible from my time with Ayutthaya.

It's perfectly possible to manage. I just don't think that doing so is interesting or fun.