• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

unmerged(14689)

The Beast from the East
Feb 12, 2003
2.366
10
Visit site
Had D-day happened a year later, the Red Army would have greeted the Americans at the Rhine in all probability, or maybe even further west.

"However, the Allies would have liked to have bombed some stuff some more first."

Well, duh. I think Stalin also would have liked for Hitler to attack in, let's say, 1943. Or take more time in planning the Moscow counteroffensive. If the second front hadn't come in 1944, it might as well not open at all.
 

unmerged(502)

General
Nov 30, 2000
1.864
0
maternowski.narod.ru
Originally posted by Neil

At any rate, the Americans sent over ten million men into the war. Do you seriously expect me to believe that the only reason they did this is because the Soviets were there to absorb the bulk of the losses?

are you trying to say this wasn't taken into consideration and it didn't really matter to the US that Germany was bleeding to death in the East? You make it sound as if Soviet Union's participation in the war was irrevelant - Americans would have saved the day anyway. I tend to believe that this assumption is wrong.
 
Feb 23, 2002
2.763
0
Originally posted by webbrave
Americans, unlike the Soviets, weren't fighting for the very survival of their country and their nation and thus were far less willing to send the troops against a superior and numerous enemy.

Hear, Hear. Couldn't agreed more. The russians could either fight, and maybe die, or don't fight, and died under worse conditions.


The Slavs: I've got no Idea if Stalin hated the Slavs as much as Hitler, but AFAIK he didn't treat them so bad. If you're going to execute someone, guilty or not, it should be done in the most humane way possible, not concentration camps.


A little OT question: Does Russia have Death as a penalty?
 
Dec 21, 2000
689
0
Visit site
Originally posted by wolfbtl
Instead in my oppinion the invasion saved Europa from being overun by the Soviets. French Comunist Partisans was very disapointed and in Paris when deGaule hade his parade they tried to snipe him with several snipers. .

Not going to disagree with you there.

The Slavs: I've got no Idea if Stalin hated the Slavs as much as Hitler, but AFAIK he didn't treat them so bad. If you're going to execute someone, guilty or not, it should be done in the most humane way possible, not concentration camps.

As a slav and with a family on the receiving end of the "wonderful" Stalin, I beg to differ. The asshole killed around 30 million people, and I can tell you now that most of those were not outside his borders.
 

unmerged(14689)

The Beast from the East
Feb 12, 2003
2.366
10
Visit site
Originally posted by Mormegil
A little OT question: Does Russia have Death as a penalty?

Officially it has, but since it is a sentence that is not allowed for members of the Council of Europe (which is NOT the same as the EU) of which Russia became a member in the second half of the 90s iirc, a moratorium (?) now lies on the execution (no fun intended :D ) of the death penalty.
 
Jun 4, 2002
589
0
Visit site
Originally posted by Mormegil
The Slavs: I've got no Idea if Stalin hated the Slavs as much as Hitler, but AFAIK he didn't treat them so bad. If you're going to execute someone, guilty or not, it should be done in the most humane way possible, not concentration camps.
What do you think the gulag was? Most estimates place 10-15 million people in the gulag itself, not including those in other labor colonies or in regular prision. Add in a similar amount in the rest of the prison system, and you are looking at a gigantic prison complex that Hitler would have loved to have had.

Source:http://www.uwm.edu/Course/448-343/index4.html
 

unmerged(14689)

The Beast from the East
Feb 12, 2003
2.366
10
Visit site
There is a BIG difference between Hitler and Stalin. Hitler killed Slavs because they were Slavs, Stalin killed people who happened to be Slavs. More Czech, Polish and Yugoslav citizens died during 5-6 years of German occupation than under 45 years of Communist rule. No sane person could ever compare the way the Germans "ruled" their Eastern territories with the way the Soviets ruled Eastern Europe.

Stalin was a brute, but after his death a lot of things improved. After this for most it became possible to live quite "normal" lives (I know someone is gonna react to this one :D ) without constant fear of arrest. Nazism wouldn't have allowed such "easing" of policies, because racial superiority was essential to Nazi ideology.
 

unmerged(9563)

The Maverick
Jun 2, 2002
3.104
0
Visit site
Not to turn this into a Hitler vs Stalin debate (who's worse), but Hitler didn't create artificial famines, Stalin did. (Causing many many deaths).

And the USA did commit a lot of troops to the war though. Thing is, 99.9% of the Soviet troops were fighting in Europe until the last 2 days of the war, while the USA was divided. (Even with 'Europe First', a decent amount of troops were in the Pacific.)
 
Dec 21, 2000
689
0
Visit site
Originally posted by Neil
http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/Camp/7624/wwII.htm#Allied Forces
If you are interested, his sources are at the bottom of the page. He has the US at a peak of 16 million mobilized.

Sorry, I can't find anything on 10 million men being sent. I can believe that 10 million MAY have been moblised (that means millions sitting in the US including god knows how many support units there too), but not that that that many were sent abroad.

As for the 16million, that makes me very skeptical of that source. Britain had a force of about 400k at the start of the war. I Don't even think they managed to moblised 5 million by the end (especially as the colonial forces are in that table as seperate forces).

Who is this guy? Sorry, but I don't really trust that site. If you can provide me with another source, I'm willing to concede the point. :)

More Czech, Polish and Yugoslav citizens died during 5-6 years of German occupation than under 45 years of Communist rule. No sane person could ever compare the way the Germans "ruled" their Eastern territories with the way the Soviets ruled Eastern Europe.

That is utter bullshit. While I am in no way belittling Hitler's evil here, Stalin's death rates piss on Hitler. 40 million is probably the best stat to use, but estimations go as far as 60million.

http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat1.htm

Stalin was a brute, but after his death a lot of things improved

Bollocks again. Things improved in the way that everyone who could be a thorn in the regime's side had already been killed, so they could stop with the mass executions/deportations. The Communist regimes were brutal and evil. Anyone who tries to display them in a positive manner clearly didn't experience it.
 

unmerged(14689)

The Beast from the East
Feb 12, 2003
2.366
10
Visit site
Originally posted by whyamihere
That is utter bullshit. While I am in no way belittling Hitler's evil here, Stalin's death rates piss on Hitler. 40 million is probably the best stat to use, but estimations go as far as 60million.

http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat1.htm

I was talking about Eastern Europe. Most of those 60 million were Soviet citizens. Stalin did most of his killing among his fellow countrymen...

Bollocks again. Things improved in the way that everyone who could be a thorn in the regime's side had already been killed, so they could stop with the mass executions/deportations. The Communist regimes were brutal and evil.

Stalin isn't Brezhnev, for example. Houses were built, people got an education, hospitals were built. I don't think the Nazis would have gone to so much trouble.

Anyone who tries to display them in a positive manner clearly didn't experience it.

Do you know webbrave? Russian, brought up in the "Evil Empire"? Check this thread

http://www.europa-universalis.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=85564

He is REALLY negative ;) about his "experiences"...
 

unmerged(14689)

The Beast from the East
Feb 12, 2003
2.366
10
Visit site
Originally posted by KwangTiger
Not to turn this into a Hitler vs Stalin debate (who's worse), but Hitler didn't create artificial famines, Stalin did. (Causing many many deaths).

Not to turn this into a Hitler vs Stalin debate (;) :D ), because both were total brutes, but Hitler created a system of mechanized extermination of a whole people...
 

unmerged(469)

Rear Admiral
Nov 19, 2000
1.120
0
Visit site
Originally posted by webbrave
Are you saying this was a routine practice in the Red Army? Or is just one of those 'black legends' like cavalry charging tanks and the like? People like Zhukov were often very brutal to their own troops, but, cruel as it may seem, this cruelty made eventual victory possible. A totalitarian regime is willing to pay a much higher price for its survival than a democractic one.
According to your favorite WWII historian Antony Beevor, the Red Army did use punishment battalions for mine clearing; he describes it as semi-suicidal work, but doesn't talk about just marching men across minefields at gunpoint.

Fun little aside, also picked up from Beevor that the Soviets copied the idea for punishment battalions from the Germans, even took German name schraf (?) and Russified it into something like shrovovky (????).
 
Dec 21, 2000
689
0
Visit site
Originally posted by Suvorov
I was talking about Eastern Europe. Most of those 60 million were Soviet citizens. Stalin did most of his killing among his fellow countrymen...

Didn't read my link, I see. I think the simple fact that you view Soviets as Russians highlights your lack of knowledge anyway. For example, Ukrainians would fall under the Soviet category, but they are NOT Russians. Stalin's people? You talking about Georgians here?

Stalin isn't Brezhnev, for example. Houses were built, people got an education, hospitals were built. I don't think the Nazis would have gone to so much trouble.

The Nazis did exactly the same, in fact even better... for their people. Same as Stalin. I see you were never in a Soviet school. Education? Give me a break.

Do you know webbrave? Russian, brought up in the "Evil Empire"? Check this thread

Couldn't care less what he might think (probably just another Russian nationalist). I was in the same boat and I know what I experienced. I have friends here who also had struggled under the regime. Don't you dare lecture me on something that I have had to live through.
 
Last edited:

unmerged(14689)

The Beast from the East
Feb 12, 2003
2.366
10
Visit site
Originally posted by Admiral Yi
Fun little aside, also picked up from Beevor that the Soviets copied the idea for punishment battalions from the Germans, even took German name schraf (?) and Russified it into something like shrovovky (????).

Huh? I read the book (have it at home actually), but I'm too lazy to look it up.

There is a word shtraf in Russian, which means "fine" (the money you pay after you break a law or something) in normal everyday talk. It is, anybody can figure that one out just by the sound of the word, of German origine, but existed in Russian already before WWII. The word "shrovovky" I don't know. Usually these units were called shtrafroty in which deserters had to, as Beevor quotes some document [remembered the quote], "pay for their crimes against the Motherland with their blood."
 
Last edited:

unmerged(11206)

Captain
Oct 4, 2002
423
0
Visit site
Originally posted by Suvorov
Besides, I find it quite offensive, no VERY offensive, that BarbarossaHRE dares to name all these numbers of tanks, planes etc. the Western Allies sent to the USSR while the Soviet people "donated" the lives of 27 million people (yes, Mr. Barbarossa, read that number again, please!) to the fight against Nazism. An American tank being shot to pieces doesn't leave a family behind. Every German killed in the East meant one German less to take on the British/Americans/Canadians.

I hope you realize how stupid it is to downplay the Soviet wareffort in this way.

Whether it offends you or not (Im sorry if it does, that wasnt my intention), its still true. So ignoring it=omitting a vital part of the equation; Im not sure why youd be offended by facts.

On "downplaying the Soviet war effort", I said I wasnt attempting to diminish the achievements of the Russian soldier (check my post again). But the actions & intentions of the common soldier dont always have anything to do with those of its government, especially when headed by an evil dictator. You can compare his methods to Hitler's & claim he wasnt as bad, but thats a moot point (& one which Im surprised anybody would even try to make) since a quick comparison of totals killed shows that he was at least as bad as Hitler, if not worse.

On "donating the lives of 27 million", just by quoting that figure youre admitting that Stalin single-handedly murdered more people than Russians died in the war! That doesnt make you hate the sick f*ck? As for "Stalin didnt treat the Slavs so badly" or "if you're going to execute someone, guilty or not, it should be done in the most humane way possible, not concentration camps", youve never heard of the 2 million Poles deported to gulags? Or the 8 million Ukrainians forcibly starved to death?!

You really have been reading '50s Soviet textbooks! :p
 
Last edited:

unmerged(16470)

Captain
Apr 24, 2003
345
0
Visit site
Originally posted by Neil
You never hear any first-hand accounts of the Americans marching soldiers through minefields to clear them, with machineguns at their backs.

I'm being neutral in this part of US/SU debate but just to correct facts IIRC the machineguns-in-the-back-thingy happened in the early part of Barbarrosa when things were real desperate for SU. But I dun recall reading any reports of this happening anymore towards later part of WWII. Other than the Hollywood "Stalingrad" movie :D (the only part of that movie I liked was the armored train..but i am digressing)
 

unmerged(16470)

Captain
Apr 24, 2003
345
0
Visit site
Originally posted by whyamihere
I can believe that 10 million MAY have been moblised (that means millions sitting in the US including god knows how many support units there too), but not that that that many were sent abroad.


Again, staying strictly within military matters, I agree with whyamihere. Western Allies, especially more so the US forces, had (and still have today) a much much bigger "tail". A better comparison should had been the number of frontline combat personnel.
 
Jun 20, 2001
452
0
Visit site
Originally posted by Suvorov


He is REALLY negative ;) about his "experiences"...

Good for him...Luckilly, he didn't live during any of Stalin's purges or when communist governments were being set up. Likewise, many Germans lived happy lives during the "Solution"...doesn't really mean much of anything though