Czechoslovakia – maybe not so weak

[Opanashc]

so which post commie state are you from ? and if you are from post comie state, why you writen this" "History is written by the winners", and communist bloc lost the Cold War, that means..." in first place ? so you should have first hand knowlenge for commies deformed history.

The very first one.

and your lord curzon example, well, i will point to your bigest problem which you miss. and that it was proposed border between poland and soviets russia, not between germany and soviets union.

Ok. So lets see... SU does not advance west ~150 miles, and in June 1941 panzers start out that much east, advance that much further east, SU falls, Germany is master of almost all of Europe, all untermench (to include those from your avatar flag country) are dealt with. You claim that's a better outcome, than what actually happened?

I don't see how that correlates with my post. The pact was signed due to Nazis not wanting a Soviet attack whilst they are fighting in France. They gave them the territories lost in 1921 as a way to convince them to sign it

Red Army was so bad, that even had it attacked in 39, not much would have changed. See Winter War for details.

 

[Shinkuro Yukinari]

The main reason why the Soviets had a Pyrrhic victory in the Winter War was the inhospitable terrain and Winter. Also Mannerheim Line to some extent, but Soviet Air Superiority would alleviate that issue. No such issues in Poland, Germans would probably flop or overcommit in France, and Polish would have welcomed the Soviets as saviours from the Germans(temporarily)

 

[Opanashc]

The main reason why the Soviets lost the Winter War was the inhospitable terrain and Winter. Also Mannerheim Line to some extent, but Soviet Air Superiority would alleviate that issue. No such issues in Poland, Germans would probably flop or overcommit in France, and Polish would have welcomed the Soviets as saviours from the Germans(temporarily)

Lost? SU achieved victory, just not a total one. One of the goals was to move the border away from Leningrad, so it could not be shelled from beyond the border. At the time Finland was very willing to get in bed with ANYONE with a grudge against USSR. That goal was achieved. Bonus goal of setting up a soviet republic of Finland was not.

 

[Shinkuro Yukinari]

My mistake. I am a bit drowsy at the moment. What I meant to say was a Pyrrhic victory

 

[Czert]

The very first one.

Ok. So lets see... SU does not advance west ~150 miles, and in June 1941 panzers start out that much east, advance that much further east, SU falls, Germany is master of almost all of Europe, all untermench (to include those from your avatar flag country) are dealt with. You claim that's a better outcome, than what actually happened?


Red Army was so bad, that even had it attacked in 39, not much would have changed. See Winter War for details.

well, i figured it out from later posts, and i can add that imo you realy miss time of ussr and want it to be reborn. which will not happen, thanks a god for it.

oh yeah, railroaded commies thinking at best. did ever ocured to you, that if m.r pact didnt existed, then germans will needed to atack poland in first place to able to cross to su ? so that when poles fight germans, it will gave a lot of time for su to mobilize, take defensive stance, and as bonus they will have figting poles on thier side, thing they historicaly lacked.
and for alternate 41, well, if they keep all that warning sighn of incoming german atacks, not only from deserter of wermacht, but even thier own spy networks, which prooved it sending acurate info...well, it is here way to save them at all ?
oh yeah, and i forgot about stalins isuing order no 2 (or it was 3?) in which he demand that to advancing germans it have to not be ressisted.
what expalanation you have for this order alone ?
oh wait, in your thinking (and justfication of partining of poland) you simply asuming that independed poland will not exist at all, will be eaten by germans alone.
well, can you show me any link to any source which claims that ? so far every printed document from that 38-40 era, together with confesion of generals/nazi politicans at nurenberg in 45 , were same, all told that thats hitler decision to attack poland was based on m-r pact, without it, he was very uneasy about atacking it without soviets blesing.
and if you will keep insiting of partioning of polaand as needed "buffer zone", well, what excuse you have for anexing of baltic states ?

or for winter war ?

 

[Czert]

Lost? SU achieved victory, just not a total one. One of the goals was to move the border away from Leningrad, so it could not be shelled from beyond the border. At the time Finland was very willing to get in bed with ANYONE with a grudge against USSR. That goal was achieved. Bonus goal of setting up a soviet republic of Finland was not.

and here we are.
why soviets needed to move borders to be save from shelling from arty (hmm...did they totaly forgot about bombers?), and from country which have weak army, extreme manpower disadvantage (leningrad itself have more ppl than whole finland) and absolutely no reason to atack su, and actualy contrary, they did everthing they can to defend from su. building defensive lines is totaly usless in invading su. and rember fins in 41 just reclaimed lost territories, and didnt want much to advance beyond these lines.
can you psot any link to fins wargoals against su in 39 and before ? to backup your claim that they were willing to go to bed with anyone and holt grudge against su.

 

[Opanashc]

well, i figured it out from later posts, and i can add that imo you realy miss time of ussr and want it to be reborn. which will not happen, thanks a god for it.

I wasn't even in school when it fell apart, so I cannot want to return something I don't remember. So your opinion on the matter is wrong.

oh yeah, railroaded commies thinking at best. did ever ocured to you, that if m.r pact didnt existed, then germans will needed to atack poland in first place to able to cross to su ? so that when poles fight germans, it will gave a lot of time for su to mobilize, take defensive stance, and as bonus they will have figting poles on thier side...

Once again, you didn't stop to think. Without M-R, SU has a war with Germany in 1939, while it is fighting Japan - Khalhin-Gol was at the EXACT same time of the signing. With M-R, SU has another 18 months of peace to prepare for war.
If SU didn't absorb the Baltic states, they would have been used by Germany as a springboard to position Wehrmacht even farther east, just like Finland.
I already stated the reason for Winter War. I can reiterate - SU was trying to move the border away from Leningrad, which at the time housed almost 1/3 of SU defense industry. Negotiations failed, hence war was started.
Accurate info on German attack... Germans moved the date for the attack a few times. They spread disinformation, and soviet intelligence agencies were reporting DOZENS of dates. One of them was the correct one. It is easy to see it in HINDSIGHT, but use your head, and not propaganda. Do you know the 6 numbers for the next multi-million dollar lottery? All the numbers that can come up are well-published.
Germany was going to attack Poland with or without M-R. The date for the attack was set before the agreement was reached.

 

[Opanashc]

and here we are.
why soviets needed to move borders to be save from shelling from arty (hmm...did they totaly forgot about bombers?), and from country which have weak army, extreme manpower disadvantage (leningrad itself have more ppl than whole finland) and absolutely no reason to atack su, and actualy contrary, they did everthing they can to defend from su. building defensive lines is totaly usless in invading su. and rember fins in 41 just reclaimed lost territories, and didnt want much to advance beyond these lines.
can you psot any link to fins wargoals against su in 39 and before ? to backup your claim that they were willing to go to bed with anyone and holt grudge against su.

Finns were talking to Japanese during the undeclared war in Mongolia, for example.
Ever heard of Greater Finland idea? Finnish government was a big fan. Good enough reason to attack SU - as long as someone else did the heavy lifting, like Germany or Japan, or UK/France.

 

[Secret Master]

I'm not really sure where we're headed anymore, but this discussion has outlived its usefulness.

If you want to continue discussing this stuff, start a new thread in the History forum. Thread closed