Czechoslovakia – maybe not so weak

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Nice research you did there, I was only interested in CZ for their juciy 38t Tanks but now you actually made me interested in playing them.
 
Interesting OP. Being an American I don't really know much about Czech history, though I was lucky enough to visit Prague once. I hope the NF does them justice, I'll definitely be doing a Czech playthrough when the expansion comes out.
 
September 1938 – world on crossroad

Few days ago I found a really nice czech article about Czechoslovak mobilization in september 1938 so I decided to bring short version of it on this forum too. In my OP I was focused only to show short version of pre-war Czechoslovakia´s history for those who didn´t know anything about it. I mentioned mobilization too, but only in one paragraph. This post can be considered as expansion of that paragraph.

First sign of incoming war

Czechoslovakia faced in that crisis multiple problems. As I mentioned before there was 5th column of Germany – SdP (Sudetendeutsche partei) led by Konrad Henlein. This party was funded by Germany and in 1935 they managed to get most votes (about 15%) in elections due support of sudeten Germans and non-existent unity of other parties – and became the 2nd most powerfull party in Czechoslovakia. This new status allowed them bring the „question about autonomy for Sudetenland“, which was changed in 1938 into demand to secesion Sudetenland with Germany.

This situation and really complicated relations with Germany led Czechoslovak´s politicians into strategy with only one goal – do not provoke them. Army didn´t share that view in full scale and made preparation for war with stronger enemy. And situation became from bad to worse every day.

On Monday, September 12th 1938, at 17:00 service officers of czechoslovak units from telephonists or telegraphists received code 5050, which meant that all commanders must immediately appear at their workplaces and call all units back into the barracks. Reason? On the same day, Adolf Hitler planned to have a speech of extraordinary importance to the 10th Congress of the NSDAP in Nuremberg. On this Congress participated Henlein and his speech, in which attacked Beneš and Czechoslovakia, was catalyst of massive riots in Sudetenland. That riots was suppresed very quickly due army readiness, SdP was banned and on Henlein was issued arrest warrant. In most risky parts of Sudetenland was established martial law. Btw. Czechoslovak army had 244k mens at that time.

Five days later, September 17th 1938 due another partial mobilization was raised numbers of Czechoslovak army into 460k mens and full-scale preparations were made – guarding the important infrastructure, improving defensive lines, checking equipment state. And they get order to attack any german military unit which crossed the border.

Meantime in backstage...

United Kingdom nor France wished another war in Europe, not even because some small young country in central Europe. Chamberlain wrote September 14 a proposal for meeting with Hitler on german ground. A day later they really met in Berchtesgaden (Hitler´s residence in Bayern) where british prime minister proposed peacefull solution of this Sudeten-crisis. Hitler agreed and after that Chamberlain with Daladier posted this solution to the Czechoslovak government – which they on September 21st agreed. This was probably main reason why UK with France didn´t count with Czechoslovakia in post-WWI borders anymore – why to fight for the country which highest politians won´t fight for it?

September 22, this plan was sent again to Hitler but he refused it – he want Sudetenland immidiately, not in partial steps. This looked like big failure of Appeasement and both, UK and France, agreed with czechoslovakian full-scale mobilization as preparation for possible war with Germany.

Time to mobilize

But when on September 21st czechoslovakian government told citizens plan to gaving up the Sudetenland, it doesn´t meet with understanding. Reaction of citizens was clear – they rallied spontanous general strike and demanded „weapons or general Syrový“. As conclusion prime minister Hodža (that name sounds same as post-war albanian president Hodxa) abdicated and general Krejčí was replaced by general Syrový (former member of Czechoslovak Legion and national hero). Jan Syrový had opinion that about border question there is no place for negotiation – there is only place for shooting.

Syrový acted really quick. On September 22nd at 22:30 his government called full-scale mobilization for every men between 18 and 40 years. That mobilization process was smooth and in less than 2 days size of Czechoslovak army raised from 460k to 1,2M mens – and all of them was determined to defend their country. This could be serious problem for German forces. In Germany was conscription banned after WWI and until 1933 they have only small profesional army – that meaned majority of German population in 1938 still haven´t finished even basic training and was useless in fighting operations.

Weak or worthy opponent?

And what are telling us the numbers? Well this is still not clear even so many years after war. But according to my sources, Czechoslovakia was able to raise after mobilization 34 infantry divisions, 4 „fast divisions“ and 3 special divisions. Their LT.35 tanks was better than german Panzers but in pure number there was ratio 350:2400 – and many german tanks were good only as support units. CsA was lacking even anti-tank canons – ony 800 vs 8000. And air force was critically obsolete – in CsA wasn´t in 1938 any monoplane! Only artillery was really strong and superior – both in quality or numbers. And experience many of former Czechoslovak Legion soldiers (now officers) give them from Russian Civil War really valuable experience how to fight vs enemy with bigger army - which could help Czechoslovakia Army.

How about Germany in September 1938? 34 infantry divisions, 4 motorized, 3 tank divisions and 21 militia divisions. But in reserves they have due lacking of trained conscripts only 8 division and that fact remains hidden from czechoslovakian intelligence (they expected 30). Luftwaffe has more than 1000 light planes and another 1000 of bombers. Really impresive – before you relalized that Germany in September 1938 has lack of trained pilots and their fuel and bomb supplies can cover only 6 weeks of war with another fuel resupply option comming in 8 months. This was a thing which could really cripple their air dominance.

But Czechoslovakia has similar problems too. Only 10-25% of Germans took part in mobilization which affected lack of specialized profesions like drivers for motorized divisions. And as I mentioned before – army wasn´t number one priority for every government since WWI, because they counted on french help if Czechoslovakia would be attacked. Nobody really calculated with situation that Czechoslovakia remained alone surounded by enemies.

In comparison – if Germany attacked on Czechoslovakia, it could be pretty equal fight – but only in situation when Hungary or Poland stayed neutral. And before you start comparing Czechoslovakia with Poland, look at terrain – Poland is pure lowland, Sudetenland is hilly terrain. This is another fact which favoured defenders. But Poland has their own claims on Zaolzie and after September 21st started to send ultimatums into Prague. And Hungary 20 years after WWI still viewed on Slovakia as „Upper Hungary“. Czechoslovakia has to spread their forces and some frontlines in average has to be defended by only 120 mens per km.

Munich Agreement

Chamberlain was scared that rising tension in central Europe can lead into another war and he tried to find peacefull solution. In contradiction to the general consciousness of most Czech citizens, in Munich on September 29th it was not about whether or not Czechoslovakia would have to undertake the disputed areas in Germany. The consent of the Czechoslovak Hodža´s government of September 21st was considered as the final decision of the state power. The conference devoted itself to only the implementing terms of the transfer of the territory of the Sudetenland to Czechoslovakia - and to nothing else. France and the United Kingdom eventually agreed to Hitler's intention to begin occupying the territory immediately on October 1st but the whole operation was to take nine days. In accordance with Hitler's intention, it did not contain clear guarantees for the existence of the Czechoslovak state in the new borders.

The representatives of the contracting parties signed the agreement on September 30th between the second and the third hour in the morning and the outcome of the agreement was handed over by the French ambassador to Germany, André Francois Poncet, to the Czechoslovak side. It was up to czechoslovakian government to declare the position on the agreement of the european Powers.

September 30th was CsA prepared to fight if Prague refused that Agreement – and tried to hope that Czechoslovakia could hold long enough to change public opinion in UK and France and making pressure for their government to help democratic country in struggle. Maybe if Poland declared neutrality, Czechoslovakia would be fighing. But situation was so dire (and president Beneš so undecisive) that surrendering looked as better option. So it will happened on October 1st and all raised czechoslovakian troops were dissolved. That was end of the war – war that never happened...

Conclusion

As I wrote in original post, Czechoslovakia wasn´t so weak nation and just food for Hitler. Sadly, when they became that food (15th March 1939), Germany was buffed so much that nobody can match him in late 1939. Czechoslovakian weapon supplies solved German shortage of weapons and many czechoslovakian tanks made crucial part of early Blitzkrieg in 1939 against Poland and even in 1940 against France. History can be cruel – if Poland didn´t want to take Zaolzie, maybe they don´t lose their own state in year later – and ditto for France...
 
Interestingly it was Benes who insisted on making the 1935 agreement conditional on French intervention. Realistically speaking USSR could only do anything if France forced either Poland or Romania to cooperate, as the two countries shared no border back then.
1. yes, benes insisted in 35 on french clausule, for simple reason, to not force czechs in campaign against poland (or any other state) if soviets decide to go on reclaiming of lost territors from russia empire , polish-soviet war of 1920-22 showed this (and well soviet 39 occupy of baltic states/poland and 40 winter war showed they did have these desires). and benes, as any other, have no idea that france should betray thier ally, so in 35 it looked like good idea.
2. actualy czechs and soviets did have comon border, but it was just small area at ukrainian borders, with so poor infrastructure, which was totaly usless for any big troop movement., so only traport via poland or romanai was viable.

o_O

People do that? I wouldn't.

It might be hard to defend Czechoslovakia from attack once Germany has taken Austria, but I wouldn't call them worthless. Heck, in our MP game, we have a standing rule that Germany can't be challenged over Munich. No one wants WWII to start in 38 and turn into a mess because the Czechs stand and fight long enough for the RAF and French army to make a difference. :)

based on today knowlenge, if war in 38 started and booth france and uk will be involved, it will be fast end for hitler. i failed to undertand why so many ppl in france/uk dedided that it is better to not opose hitler and make him only stronger and sacrisfie ally which should help them to keep him in line. recaling of WWI experiance realy cant work , since czechs experinced it too, from booth sides (as regulars of centar powers and rebels + volunters in entete), and they were willing to fight.
same as "warmonger" churchill.
and as wwi prooved, two front war for germany was bad, since forces needed to fight in east prevented them victory over france early in war. just this lesson alone shoudl be enought.
yes i know, fall of france in 40 proved that frenchmen lacked will to fight, but never uderstanded why it existed.
 
It's a pity, that in current HOI4 USSR can't in some way guarantee Czechoslovakia, forcing Germans to stop. Or bring ultimatum to Poland to get military access for the troops to help Czechs.
PDX provide some very "original" vision of USSR in this period in HOI4.

it depends on your view of ussr. if you want to have in game historic one or more gameplay interesing one.
historicaly at that time period usssr was more concerned about reclaiming of lost russian empire territories and exporting of revolution than honoring signed pacts.
but yeah, guaranting czechs in 38 or forcing poland for troops acces (and resulting war) can be viewed as nice oportunity to bring commies to czechs, germans and mayby other lands too.
 
Wow. Elephants in a china shop. Even if UK and France approved of such action for reasons beyond my mental grasp - it would only push Poland to the Axis side.

Back when agreements between Czechoslovakia, France and USSR were negotiated it was believed that France had enough influence over Poland and Romania to do something about it, but later it turned out to be wishful thinking. Best case scenario for the alternative history where Munich doesn't go the way it did - Romania could be convinced to turn a blind eye to unusually large number of male Soviet tourists suddenly wishing to visit Prague. In game terms: if USSR joins France in the German-Czech war they get to send large volunteer corps, more than normal rules would allow.

corect me if im wrong, but from which time poland did have alliance with france ? i know that france helped poles in thier polish-soviet 20-22 war, but cant recal any (formal) alliance or guarantees to polish territory after it.
guarantes to polish teritorial integrity/indepence comed in 39.
so why france should have any word in polish-soviet relations/actions ?

and yours soviets tourists...well that should work only if poland/romania oicialy refuse to allow troop acces and soviets still wanted to help without escalating situation. rember legion condor in spain was german tourists with eqipment gifts/sells to natinalistist spain.
if they gived acces, there is no reason that soviets help will be anytning other than reguar military help - regular alliance.
 
Umm, wouldn't France and the UK object just as strongly to that they would to anything else? They'd be trading Soviet expansion for German expansion.

There's no way those Soviet troops are leaving Poland once the crisis is over.

well, corect me if im wrong, but how exactly france/uk objected any german expansion after 1933 ?
one can say that in 39 they showed nothing, in 40..it was less than half-hearted. and anything in between ?
in 38 they were actualy strongly pro german expansion.
 
well, corect me if im wrong, but how exactly france/uk objected any german expansion after 1933 ?
one can say that in 39 they showed nothing, in 40..it was less than half-hearted. and anything in between ?
in 38 they were actualy strongly pro german expansion.
While Hitler was moving to the East, it was okay for the allies. They were looking for "final solution of communist problem" brought by Germany. Theh kind of always like to fight with someone's else hands.
 
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While Hitler was moving to the East, it was okay for the allies. They were looking for "final solution of communist problem" brought by Germany. Theh kind of always like to fight with someone's else hands.

I agree with you, but from sm post, i did have impresion that he is saying/suggesting that west objected to german expansion.
 
I agree with you, but from sm post, i did have impresion that he is saying/suggesting that west objected to german expansion.

No, that's not what I am saying.

I'm saying that an ultimatum from the Soviet Union to Poland, even to defend the Czechs, would be unacceptable to France and Britain. They know damn well that the Soviets wouldn't leave Poland.

Britain and France might be willing to negotiate with Hitler in 1937 and 1938, but they sure as Hell aren't willing to offer concessions to Stalin at that point. By 1939, after Germany breaks Munich, things are different.
 
No, that's not what I am saying.

I'm saying that an ultimatum from the Soviet Union to Poland, even to defend the Czechs, would be unacceptable to France and Britain. They know damn well that the Soviets wouldn't leave Poland.

Britain and France might be willing to negotiate with Hitler in 1937 and 1938, but they sure as Hell aren't willing to offer concessions to Stalin at that point. By 1939, after Germany breaks Munich, things are different.
Soviet ultimatum can at least force Poland to stay neutral in Czech-German conflict, which is already much. On the other hand, Polish Interbellum governments showed themselves not completely adequate, so they could risk and continue pressure on the Czechoslovakia in such situation too.

Most suitable state to get military access to Czech lands is Romania. The only question is the price of the deal.
Planes can fly to Czechoslovakia at night so "noone saw them - so no planes were there, sure". Tanks can be sent as tractors or whatever else similar through railroad. Volunteers are a "group of tourists", which suddenly has decided to visit their Czech friends.

After all, Czechoslovakia doesn't need to take Berlin, all they need is to hold Germans and inflict heavy casualties to them.
 
No, that's not what I am saying.

I'm saying that an ultimatum from the Soviet Union to Poland, even to defend the Czechs, would be unacceptable to France and Britain. They know damn well that the Soviets wouldn't leave Poland.

Britain and France might be willing to negotiate with Hitler in 1937 and 1938, but they sure as Hell aren't willing to offer concessions to Stalin at that point. By 1939, after Germany breaks Munich, things are different.

In 39 things were different for west ? in what way ? they didnt helped poland at all, event at war, and didnt taken war seriously untill fall of france and bob.
 
Soviet ultimatum can at least force Poland to stay neutral in Czech-German conflict, which is already much. On the other hand, Polish Interbellum governments showed themselves not completely adequate, so they could risk and continue pressure on the Czechoslovakia in such situation too.

Most suitable state to get military access to Czech lands is Romania. The only question is the price of the deal.
Planes can fly to Czechoslovakia at night so "noone saw them - so no planes were there, sure". Tanks can be sent as tractors or whatever else similar through railroad. Volunteers are a "group of tourists", which suddenly has decided to visit their Czech friends.

After all, Czechoslovakia doesn't need to take Berlin, all they need is to hold Germans and inflict heavy casualties to them.
polish diplomacy was simply wrong in asuming that hitler is thier friend, they thought if they cooperate with him against czechs, he will leave them alone. never thought he have plans for them too, to end at plate.
problem with soviets is that they never showed thier intentions. they just partialy mobilized thier forces. didnt started military acces talks (to anyone), didnt warned polandd to stay back. didnt negotiated with czechs with sending material aid.
actualy official sending military material/resources (fuel) throught poland or romania will never be problem, it will need just time to arange it, problem was actual troops. poles for obvious reasons didnt wanted to allow it.
so we can only speculate if soviets will just force passage throught limited territory along railroad, or should go full poland.
another question is if poles will try to force thier demands in case of german-czech war, or will stay put and silent to not provoke soviet bear, which just looked for reason to eat them.
same for romania - soviets didnt started negotiating with them for troop acces.
plane flyover via poland/romania was no problem for them, they confrimed it to czech.
 
In 39 things were different for west ? in what way ?

The French and British entered into negotiations with Poland and the Soviets to see if Poland would let the Soviets move troops through Poland. The Poles refused, but this was a discussion they weren't willing to have in 1938.
 
1). After the Anschluss of Austria - the situation of Czechoslovakia became very difficult, almost hopeless. There were few fortifications on the former Austrian border, so the German army could easily dissect the territory of Czechoslovakia. In addition, the Czech industry was in the zone of operation of German aviation.
2). France's position boiled down to the fact that the help of Czechoslovakia can not in any way hinder the German aggression. The German economy is about 3 times more powerful than the French and the population is about 2 times larger. To start such a war for France is suicide.
3). The position of the UK was that its army and its economy were not ready for a protracted war, so it abandoned any idea of granting guarantees to Czechoslovakia. The chiefs of staff proceeded from the premise that if the war began in 1938, the superiority of forces would be on Germany's side. The participation of the Czech army - only able to temporarily equalize the forces.
 
The French and British entered into negotiations with Poland and the Soviets to see if Poland would let the Soviets move troops through Poland. The Poles refused, but this was a discussion they weren't willing to have in 1938.

wait, you are saying that west was triing in 39 to put soviets in anti german coalition ? in never heard about it.
 
I'm saying that an ultimatum from the Soviet Union to Poland, even to defend the Czechs, would be unacceptable to France and Britain. They know damn well that the Soviets wouldn't leave Poland.
Like they themselves didn't leave the Arab countries 20 years prior?
problem with soviets is that they never showed thier intentions. they just partialy mobilized thier forces. didnt started military acces talks (to anyone), didnt warned polandd to stay back. didnt negotiated with czechs with sending material aid.
Just because you don't know about it, does not mean it didn't happen. Talks with Romania were complete for aviation overfly, for example.
 
Like they themselves didn't leave the Arab countries 20 years prior?

Of course.

You should know me better by now. Just because I assume the Soviets would expand their sphere of influence doesn't mean I put my fingers in my ears and say "La la la la la" when other countries do/did the same thing.
 
1). After the Anschluss of Austria - the situation of Czechoslovakia became very difficult, almost hopeless. There were few fortifications on the former Austrian border, so the German army could easily dissect the territory of Czechoslovakia. In addition, the Czech industry was in the zone of operation of German aviation.
2). France's position boiled down to the fact that the help of Czechoslovakia can not in any way hinder the German aggression. The German economy is about 3 times more powerful than the French and the population is about 2 times larger. To start such a war for France is suicide.
3). The position of the UK was that its army and its economy were not ready for a protracted war, so it abandoned any idea of granting guarantees to Czechoslovakia. The chiefs of staff proceeded from the premise that if the war began in 1938, the superiority of forces would be on Germany's side. The participation of the Czech army - only able to temporarily equalize the forces.

1. you are right in that that adding of austria to germany greatly complicated things for czechs, especialy when aviation is concerned (it allowed ping-pong bombardement of czech lands. fly from germany, bomb, land at austria, rearm/refual and bomb again to return to german base for repair, rest etc), but for land invasion, situation was critical only for short time period, with more time without war, situation improved by each day. czechs in 38 did allready have 4 years with continuous building and planing of forts (3 for light), so work there was realy fast, with planed light forts fully completed by 39 (across whole german border, not only former austria).
and well, czech industry was well in range of german aviation even before austria adition, but yeah, it maked some of them closer than before (including newly constucted with intention to make them more safer from german air force).
2. no france simply didnt wanted to fight, that all, look at how miserably they performed when defending own land. france was booth industrial and manpower inferior to germany even in WWI, yet they fighted. and as wwi showed, two front war for germans is not ideal, than one front. hawing to fight russians at ww1, this fact prevented them victory over france in 1914.
yes, you can argue, that in 1914 france was atacked and didnt started war, but look at 1870. germany was superior to france in booth population and industrial capacity (but not so bigly as in 1938 or 1914), but yet, france started war against germany , and lost.
and actualy, for france in case of war, 38 situation was way more favorable than in 39, because germany fielded smaller army (and worse eqiped), despite czechs did have smaller army than poles. and as bonus czechs did have fully mobilized one, unlike poles which still mobilized.
and you are forgeting that brits most likely will join france (as they did in WW1), putting all paper conssiderations against germany.
and if france in 38 fully mobilized, france alone on western front against germany will have over 4:1 advantage in land divisions alone (remember divs send against czechs) , in planes it will be around 1:1.
if uk joined, air superiority over germany will be crushing.
3.well, for UK position in 39 was even worse than in 38, thier military production increase was smaller than for germany, so they didnt gained anything. and yes, british economy was not ready for war in 38, same as not in 39 and propably never considering action of thier goverment. if you allow germany to lift restiction on thier ships tonage and numbers (booth in 35), you are only puting yourself in worse situation if war rose with need to spend more resources than if you didnt alowed it. same for not caring at all, when germany created wermacht, luftwaffe and openly started war preparations, while uk did absoletely nothing to prepare for war, even after munich they were half-hearted, until war actualy broken up.
what uk goverment in 38 did was just looking for excuses for thier apasment policy, than to realisticaly consider situation and future.
and czechs army able only temporary to equalize situation ? with 1,25 :1 ratio in favor for german number of divs, with czech having advantage of terrain and forts ?
sure, czechs in prolonged fighting against germans alone surely will lose, due to superior manpower and production, but they will be able to resist long enough for france (and britain) to fully mobilize, tranport army, and crush any german oposition on western front.
but before you ask, i belive that if in 38 war broken out, west will do "polish situation" - meaning do absolutely nothing to help them, just sit and watch.
extremly interesing question is soviet action in case of france involment in war (even as just pasive observer). what they will do ? just send planes ? or even troops ? and which way ?
but yeah, in extremly unlikely event that if west not only declared war in 38, but actuly moved against germany, war will end in 38 with germany losing.
not talking about planed oster coup against hitler if two front war broke out. (oposition which in 39 didnt existed due to 38 sucess).
 
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