Czechoslovakia defence/forts

[TheDungen]

Because:

And in 39' poles (not polaks - please) had: 880 tanks against 2,7 k; 400 aeroplanes against 1,3 k; 4,3 k artillery against 10 k; 1 mln troops against 1,8 mln germans.
Additionally on the other side came 0,6 mln troops, 5 k artillary, 5 k tanks and 3,3 k aeroplanes of Red Star Army.
Also different terrain - grater poland and mazuria (west prussia) are mostly flatlands, Czechs had much more defensive terrain.

So it's totally true that if Poland would realize Piłsudski politics and not stand against Czechs, Germans would have really hard time conquering Czechoslovakia, or at least it would take a lot more time then September campaign, what means delaying all war and giving more time for poland and grater allies to prepare.

Yeah let's not underestimate how weak powers managed to do well in ww2, Finland held back the might of the red army due to tenacity and terrain, the czechs certainly had equally harsh terrain, I don't know if they had the same national unity but they on the other and had better defences prepared. Even the poles at times did miraculous with what they had and what they faced. The battle of Wizna should be familiar to all Sabaton fans (though the odds might have been closer to 80:1 than 40:1).

 

[grandad1982]

There were two Czech armoured divisions in WWW (I think, the icons are a bit hard to see in Twtch's resolution) They were both in the far east of Slovakia and are probably the reason things went so slow on that part of the front. For some reason they have infantry sprites but the icon looks like a tank to me.

They were mountain divisions. The symbol was a mountain not a tank. The Czech's have infantry, mountaineers and cavalry.

 

[Lolkar]

They were mountain divisions. The symbol was a mountain not a tank. The Czech's have infantry, mountaineers and cavalry.

Oh so no chance to build Fast divisions with Lt vz.35 when you have to build equipment, forts, airplanes, soldiers, etc. Damn i will make a Czechoslovak mod with their mod editor. Dont know if its possible to create custom National focus tree in this editor, we will see.

 

[Lolkar]

Because:

And in 39' poles (not polaks - please) had: 880 tanks against 2,7 k; 400 aeroplanes against 1,3 k; 4,3 k artillery against 10 k; 1 mln troops against 1,8 mln germans.
Additionally on the other side came 0,6 mln troops, 5 k artillary, 5 k tanks and 3,3 k aeroplanes of Red Star Army.
Also different terrain - grater poland and mazuria (west prussia) are mostly flatlands, Czechs had much more defensive terrain.

So it's totally true that if Poland would realize Piłsudski politics and not stand against Czechs, Germans would have really hard time conquering Czechoslovakia, or at least it would take a lot more time then September campaign, what means delaying all war and giving more time for poland and grater allies to prepare.

Sorry about "polaks" i have limited knowledge in english and didnt knew how to call polish people in english.

 

[telesien]

Because:

And in 39' poles (not polaks - please) had: 880 tanks against 2,7 k; 400 aeroplanes against 1,3 k; 4,3 k artillery against 10 k; 1 mln troops against 1,8 mln germans.
Additionally on the other side came 0,6 mln troops, 5 k artillary, 5 k tanks and 3,3 k aeroplanes of Red Star Army.
Also different terrain - grater poland and mazuria (west prussia) are mostly flatlands, Czechs had much more defensive terrain.

So it's totally true that if Poland would realize Piłsudski politics and not stand against Czechs, Germans would have really hard time conquering Czechoslovakia, or at least it would take a lot more time then September campaign, what means delaying all war and giving more time for poland and grater allies to prepare.

If you think, that Poland had smaller or worse army than Czechoslovakia, you are wrong.

And as far as terrain goes, that wold be true, if Germans planned an all front steamrolling attack. Which they didn't. There were more than enough routes of access that bypass the most difficult terrain. Also there was no big river to stop their attack. They could stroll easily from borders to Prague, without the need to cross any noticable body of water.

PS: if you happen to "respectfully disagree" with my post, please write at least few sentences why. Clicking on button is pointless and doesn't help anything

 

[TheDungen]

If you think, that Poland had smaller or worse army than Czechoslovakia, you are wrong.

And as far as terrain goes, that wold be true, if Germans planned an all front steamrolling attack. Which they didn't. There were more than enough routes of access that bypass the most difficult terrain. Also there was no big river to stop their attack. They could stroll easily from borders to Prague, without the need to cross any noticable body of water.

PS: if you happen to "respectfully disagree" with my post, please write at least few sentences why. Clicking on button is pointless and doesn't help anything

There's more to terrain than waterways, elevation for an example czechia is pretty mountainous.

 

[telesien]

There's more to terrain than waterways, elevation for an example czechia is pretty mountainous.

Hilly is the word you were looking for. Less hilly and wooded than Ardennes though. I happen to live in the area that was supposed to be the main staging ground for the German invasion. It offers large gaps of easily accessable rolling hills than one might think when simply looking at the map. Also fortification efforts were concentrated on the northern borders, The attack from the Gmünd area would easily penetrate deep behind the defensive line.

 

[TheDungen]

Hilly is the word you were looking for. Less hilly and wooded than Ardennes though. I happen to live in the area that was supposed to be the main staging ground for the German invasion. It offers large gaps of easily accessable rolling hills than one might think when simply looking at the map. Also fortification efforts were concentrated on the northern borders, The attack from the Gmünd area would easily penetrate deep behind the defensive line.

No idea never been to the ardennes but I'd say the north czech border is more hilly than the rhineland, whihc is itself quite hilly.

And I'm not sure I agree on the word hilly, hills have less than 45 degree slope if you ask me.

 

[telesien]

No idea never been to the ardennes but I'd say the north czech border is more hilly than the rhineland, whihc is itself quite hilly.

And I'm not sure I agree on the word hilly, hills have less than 45 degree slope if you ask me.

The main attack was planned from south. Germans weren't idiots to charge through the worst terrain and against the heaviest fortifications

 

[BoleslavLev]

Let´s cut down to the core of this. Czechoslovakia didn´t defend itself, because it was impossible. And it was impossible, because Czechoslovakia didn´t want to defend itself. It is painful for me to say this, but I believe this to be the truth (and that beats any nationalism for me). Czechoslovakia relied too heavily on France and started actual preparation for eventual war way too late. In 1936 there couldn´t be much done to improve - but as a player with a knowledge of historic outcome you could prepare a bit better with the time you have (at least get some AA guns and perhaps a few tanks).

EDIT: And the note about soviet attack is just funny. USSR was maybe the only state that offered Czechoslovakia help - and it went way beyond what was obligatory for it from the alliance with Czechoslovakia. It even broke some diplomatic traditions to give us it´s support (of course it wanted to spread it´s influence in the west, so it wasn´t like the USSR wanted to help because they were the good guys, but their help was real and serious in 1938).

 

[TheDungen]

Granted but I don't think anyone is suggesting that czechosloviakia could resist germany. But the idea that they could not resist hungary is a bit odd.

 

[BoleslavLev]

Yeah - Hungary is a different case entirely - Czechoslovakia should be able to invade it easily, let alone just defend from it.

 

[Tvarog]

Sorry about "polaks" i have limited knowledge in english and didnt knew how to call polish people in english.

In czech poles are polak, polaki?
Don't worry man

If you think, that Poland had smaller or worse army than Czechoslovakia, you are wrong.

And as far as terrain goes, that wold be true, if Germans planned an all front steamrolling attack. Which they didn't. There were more than enough routes of access that bypass the most difficult terrain. Also there was no big river to stop their attack. They could stroll easily from borders to Prague, without the need to cross any noticable body of water.

PS: if you happen to "respectfully disagree" with my post, please write at least few sentences why. Clicking on button is pointless and doesn't help anything

I was trying to show why I disagree your statement "if you think Germany stormed over Poland, they would have even easier time against Czechoslovakia" in my last post, but i'll try harder.

First of all I don't think that "Germany stormed over Poland" because true is that Germany and USSR stormed over Poland.
Secondly i don't agree that "they would have even easier time against Czechoslovakia" because:

1. Numbers. I don't think that Poland had smaller army, they were quite similar referring to Nicolas post. About 1 mln troops. Polish army had almost twice as many tanks and artillery then Czechoslovakia. I was surprised that Poland had not so much planes, but everybody knows that they were really well trained (before war they build a lot of flying schools, it was something like national focus). And still Josef Frantisek is my favourite pilot!
BUT until September 39' germany army grew much faster and stronger because they industry focus, what i wanted to show in numbers in previous post, they had much weaker army and haven't Czechs equipment before, thats why i think Czechoslovakia could have much more chances in defending themselves.

2. Terrain. When I sad Czechs had more defensive terrain i meant that they could much more effective distribute soldiers, leaving less in those well defensive position and putting more in those less defensive. It's much more effective. In grater Poland and Pomeralia terrain is really flat what made Germany to attack fully frontier, blitzkrieg-like. Ok, they could stop them on Vistula river, but Warsaw is on the western side and on the eastern side is east prussia. So there were almost no good defensive positions at all in Poland, that's why i think Czechs would defend longer.

3. I must agree that national unity was on the polish side much more then in on Czechs, pre-war national unity against aggressors is opus magnum for polish people till today. Also intelligence was quite good, they were stealing secret mails from trains going from germany to east prussia, intel was that what gave them victory in 20' against Bolsheviks.

4. USSR, if Poland had fight only against Germany they would stay much longer, but 17 days after war started second frontier strikes from the opposite side, this is costly not only for strategy but also and mostly for morale of armies. Standing alone against two most powerful armies doesn't sound good at all. And then all those numbers we can screw and say... oh, ok, no chance. Czechs fighting only with Germany would have much more chance.

If for example polish political climate would be different not to take damn unrelevant Zaolzie and Czechoslovakia would protect herself for few weeks maybe France would intervene diplomatically, then Poland had no choice to stand in the same side as France, as result, same as Czechs.

And last, as I watch WWW and how minor powers are taken over I clearly can see that minor powers like Czechoslovakia and Poland are clearly underestimated, Poland is completely crushed in HOI4 at least too early without USSR attack mechanics. It's obvious that if in HOI4 Germany and Red Army would attack together, Warsaw would be taken in week or so.

Yeah let's not underestimate how weak powers managed to do well in ww2, Finland held back the might of the red army due to tenacity and terrain, the czechs certainly had equally harsh terrain, I don't know if they had the same national unity but they on the other and had better defences prepared. Even the poles at times did miraculous with what they had and what they faced. The battle of Wizna should be familiar to all Sabaton fans (though the odds might have been closer to 80:1 than 40:1).

You should check westerplatte fight as well and Monte Casino fight in Italy, there on polish side was fighting bear brought from Syria named Wojtek.

 

[TheDungen]

You should check westerplatte fight as well and Monte Casino fight in Italy, there on polish side was fighting bear brought from Syria named Wojtek.

Thank you but I am not really the sort who's intrested in heroics like that except as examples of a greater phenomenon.

 

[telesien]

In czech poles are polak, polaki?
Don't worry man




I was trying to show why I disagree your statement "if you think Germany stormed over Poland, they would have even easier time against Czechoslovakia" in my last post, but i'll try harder.

First of all I don't think that "Germany stormed over Poland" because true is that Germany and USSR stormed over Poland.
Secondly i don't agree that "they would have even easier time against Czechoslovakia" because:

1. Numbers. I don't think that Poland had smaller army, they were quite similar referring to Nicolas post. About 1 mln troops. Polish army had almost twice as many tanks and artillery then Czechoslovakia. I was surprised that Poland had not so much planes, but everybody knows that they were really well trained (before war they build a lot of flying schools, it was something like national focus). And still Josef Frantisek is my favourite pilot!
BUT until September 39' germany army grew much faster and stronger because they industry focus, what i wanted to show in numbers in previous post, they had much weaker army and haven't Czechs equipment before, thats why i think Czechoslovakia could have much more chances in defending themselves.

2. Terrain. When I sad Czechs had more defensive terrain i meant that they could much more effective distribute soldiers, leaving less in those well defensive position and putting more in those less defensive. It's much more effective. In grater Poland and Pomeralia terrain is really flat what made Germany to attack fully frontier, blitzkrieg-like. Ok, they could stop them on Vistula river, but Warsaw is on the western side and on the eastern side is east prussia. So there were almost no good defensive positions at all in Poland, that's why i think Czechs would defend longer.

3. I must agree that national unity was on the polish side much more then in on Czechs, pre-war national unity against aggressors is opus magnum for polish people till today. Also intelligence was quite good, they were stealing secret mails from trains going from germany to east prussia, intel was that what gave them victory in 20' against Bolsheviks.

4. USSR, if Poland had fight only against Germany they would stay much longer, but 17 days after war started second frontier strikes from the opposite side, this is costly not only for strategy but also and mostly for morale of armies. Standing alone against two most powerful armies doesn't sound good at all. And then all those numbers we can screw and say... oh, ok, no chance. Czechs fighting only with Germany would have much more chance.

If for example polish political climate would be different not to take damn unrelevant Zaolzie and Czechoslovakia would protect herself for few weeks maybe France would intervene diplomatically, then Poland had no choice to stand in the same side as France, as result, same as Czechs.

And last, as I watch WWW and how minor powers are taken over I clearly can see that minor powers like Czechoslovakia and Poland are clearly underestimated, Poland is completely crushed in HOI4 at least too early without USSR attack mechanics. It's obvious that if in HOI4 Germany and Red Army would attack together, Warsaw would be taken in week or so.


You should check westerplatte fight as well and Monte Casino fight in Italy, there on polish side was fighting bear brought from Syria named Wojtek.

That remark was pretty much an afterthought, not the main point of my argument here

Poland had big army and in the early 30's it was considered one of the most modern armies in the world. Czechoslovakia never got that advanced.
I don't really know what equipment was adapted by German army. I am pretty sure they didn't use rifles or other personal weapons. Didn't hear about machine guns or artillery pieces.

Terrain may be better suited for defence overall, but you must consider, that Germans had plans based around the terrain. They knew what to expect both in Poland and Czechoslovakia and their later exploits in 1940 against Belgium showed, that they knew how to deal both with defensible terrain and fortifications. In case of Czechoslovakia they were for example planning to deliver troops by planes behind the defensive fortifications. The landing areas were scouted before the war and with pretty much non-existent air defense, they could very well use them to great effect.

Two fronts is certainly big problem. I don't want to play an expert on international situation at that specific point in history, but I wouldn't strictly rule out either uprising Slovaks or intervention from Hungary.

But that is a bit big too much deep into the fantasy realm to argue seriously. I am willing to argue that Czechoslovakia had no chance of resisting despite the deep rooted idea, that we could wipe the floor with Hitler or something. That is just symptom of national butthurt

 

[BBBD316]

Well as far as I am aware didn't Hitler want war and feel robbed by the allies of the start to the war?

So I think the Czechs refusing is not going to be a big deal, perhaps the Poles join the Germans to make sure they get what they want?

I think there should be 1-2lvl forts in some and then the NF should be very easy to get to and it adds them up to 5?

 

[potski]

Of course there are forts. See the fifth picture in this very early DD:

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...1-map-graphics-no-counters-discussion.814718/

[The thread is locked so I can't quote it]

You can see on the left of the screenshot the border between Germany and Czechoslovakia with the bunkers.

I think Daniel never zoomed in far enough on the border to see bunkers. They are only visible on the map at the zoom levels where you see the 3D Div models.

They may not be complete of course, given how early Daniel invaded. Especially along the Hungary border.

As mentioned there is an NF which allows fortification in some provinces, plus you can construct more using your civilian factories.

I'm sure a Czechoslovakia player could get the historic fortifications by the time of Munich.

 

[Kubusta]

true that,@potski

Anyway, I made an attachement to make it easier to see.

I think there will be some forts and if player wishes to build more, he will get enough time, hopefully.

My question is though.. When Munchen treaty takes place, GB, France, Italy and Hitler sign it, right. So if I am playing as France or GB, can I say NO ? Can I refuse it and if yes, what are the consequences? Or if Germany "research" Munchen treaty and demands Sudetenland, will it automatically cede these territories to them without anyone having chance to reverse it?

 

[Orlunu]

And I'm not sure I agree on the word hilly, hills have less than 45 degree slope if you ask me.

I live next to a mountain the height of a tall house, then.

First of all I don't think that "Germany stormed over Poland" because true is that Germany and USSR stormed over Poland.

4. USSR, if Poland had fight only against Germany they would stay much longer, but 17 days after war started second frontier strikes from the opposite side, this is costly not only for strategy but also and mostly for morale of armies. Standing alone against two most powerful armies doesn't sound good at all. And then all those numbers we can screw and say... oh, ok, no chance. Czechs fighting only with Germany would have much more chance.

Well, very few units were left in the east after the army had been sent to fight off the Germans. On top of that, many of the units that were still there mistakenly thought that the Soviet units were marching in to reinforce the Poles, since there had been recent negotiations about a guarantee of independence aimed against German expansion. Whilst the Soviet advance denied the Poles territory to retreat into for a more protracted defense in depth, there was remarkably little actual fighting between them, and by the time the Polish divisions had been driven back far enough for it to matter much, it'd probably have been a front-wide rout. Regardless of the Soviet invasion, the Germans faced almost the whole Polish military.

 

[Sun_Killer]

If I remember correctly the Munich agreement worked alot like the anschluss of Austria, The Austrians voted it down but then hilter came with his tanks and the votes didnt really matter. In the Munich agreement alot of different states like Britain and Germany came together and decided that Germany had the right to the Sudetenland (The czechs were not invited) so then the czechs had to either give up the land or fight Germany alone cause the rest of the world had already given Germany the green light. This I guess is how it will work in the game, you will get an event that says they demand the land and you can either give it to them or fight alone (granted you don't have a faction). The loss of the sudetenland meant the czech had already lost ww2 as with it they loss valuable stragetgic land and many of their forts.

This isn´t exactly how i learned it in school. Goes more like: Hitler invested alot in the bulding of the NSDAP in Austria. which gets banned 1936 or so after they tried to take over the country. After this there is an facist anti german goverment, but i gets slowly infiltrated by more and more agents of germany and later on offical pressure from germany to make an german agent president in Austria. After that the Germans marched into Austria and the president gave a stand down order to the austrian army. After this the offical annexation began, And there was election between No and Yes to the Anschluss. The offical result was 99,7% or so in fevor of the Anschluss. I am pretty sure that this number is a bit manipulated, but i wouldn´t be surprised if the real number wasn´t some where in 80'ies. You have to remember, Austria had some very explosive years behind it in intern politics, so alot of people hoped for stability with the Anschluss.