Czechoslovakia defence/forts

[Lightning Jack]

Not only should the forts be in but, the Škoda Works industrial complex should be too. It was one of the largest armament complex's in the world and Hitler got it for free due to Allied bumbling. Yes, I'm talking about you Neville and Edouard.....

 

[Vnislav]

I have one question. If Germany chooses Munich agreement from National focus tree Czechoslovakia just immediately loses their territories in northern Bohemia ? It would be nice if they had option to defend those even if there would be almost no chance of succee

If I remember correctly DDRJake said they could refuse in a WWW, just that they would have no hope of surviving. I believe this is the case with any of those kind of national focuses. If the target nation is a player they can always refuse, there just will be consequences.

 

[llib]

Another thing i want to talk about is, in WWW i did not saw Armored divisions. Czechoslovaks in the year 1938 had 4 armored divisions. We had 70 of Tančík vz.33, they could be compared to Pz I

Spoiler

View attachment 170273

Then we had 50 of Lt vz.34 and 298 of Lt vz.35, which were so good that Germans used them even in Poland, France and Operation Barbarossa.

Hi Lolkar,
someone else already correcter "minomet", but I don't think part about "armored divisions" was corrected.
Pre-war, Czechoslovakia did not had any armored divisions, only "fast divisions". This is not matter of naming only - they were divisions consisting of one armored and one cavalry brigade. So it's correct to say that highest armored formations were armored brigades(I think one was on full numbers, two were on modest numbers and one had almost no tanks at all).
I would also say that Tancik vz.33 was far inferior to Pz.I, armament wise perhaps comparable, but otherwise they were very poor vehicles that is questionable even whether they should have been accepted by army (not meeting the requirements they were supposed to). They were useful against Freikorps uprising, but they were useless against conventional army (essentially motorized machinegun). They can be compared to bren carriers.
Lt vz.34 had number of problems but they were relatively good.
Lt vz.35 were very good.
Lt vz.38 were coming in 1939, and were effective till 1942(with Hetzer as derivative lasting until after war).
St vz.39 were coming perhaps late in 1939(in limited numbers), and would be on par if not better than any pz.3 or pz.4 of the time.
Otherwise, I am reasonably sure Czechoslovak fortifications will be included to similar extent compared to HOI3.
I'm not sure how much will those fortifications work, though, in earlier build Johan had his units fighting in Maginot line remnants for some months, but we'll need to wait and see for release of HOI4.
It's also something we need to wait and see about industrial potential, Czech countries were industrial hearth of Austro-Hungarian empire and this industry mostly kept on after ww1.

 

[BoleslavLev]

Czechoslovakia could maybe survive if it would start to really prepare in 1933, but not in the situation it found itself in 1938. Curious thing is that it built really good tanks and stuff AFTER it lost Sudets - aaand then it gave them to Germans (those LT 38 were raiding Europe for half of the war ).

 

[TheDungen]

If I remember correctly DDRJake said they could refuse in a WWW, just that they would have no hope of surviving. I believe this is the case with any of those kind of national focuses. If the target nation is a player they can always refuse, there just will be consequences.

Yeah I don't really understand the series of events in reality here, the münich agreement gave the sudetenland to the germans, but did the czech give it up? I mean of they didn't then hitler would have had to take it anyway.

 

[Vnislav]

Yeah I don't really understand the series of events in reality here, the münich agreement gave the sudetenland to the germans, but did the czech give it up? I mean of they didn't then hitler would have had to take it anyway.

If I remember correctly the Munich agreement worked alot like the anschluss of Austria, The Austrians voted it down but then hilter came with his tanks and the votes didnt really matter. In the Munich agreement alot of different states like Britain and Germany came together and decided that Germany had the right to the Sudetenland (The czechs were not invited) so then the czechs had to either give up the land or fight Germany alone cause the rest of the world had already given Germany the green light. This I guess is how it will work in the game, you will get an event that says they demand the land and you can either give it to them or fight alone (granted you don't have a faction). The loss of the sudetenland meant the czech had already lost ww2 as with it they loss valuable stragetgic land and many of their forts.

 

[Lolkar]

If I remember correctly the Munich agreement worked alot like the anschluss of Austria, The Austrians voted it down but then hilter came with his tanks and the votes didnt really matter. In the Munich agreement alot of different states like Britain and Germany came together and decided that Germany had the right to the Sudetenland (The czechs were not invited) so then the czechs had to either give up the land or fight Germany alone cause the rest of the world had already given Germany the green light. This I guess is how it will work in the game, you will get an event that says they demand the land and you can either give it to them or fight alone (granted you don't have a faction). The loss of the sudetenland meant the czech had already lost ww2 as with it they loss valuable stragetgic land and many of their forts.

Well, in few days there was a lot of diplomacy. Hitler presented territory demands, GB decides to do conference where Italy will be host of the conference, they choosed Munich and invited only GB and France. Czechoslovakia, Soviet Union (Czechoslovak allie - would go to war only with France, but held off Polish army). GB was affraid by "end of Peace" and didnt protest about univiting SU. Czechoslovak diplomat wanted to visit this conference, but he was escorted by SS soldiers into hotel where he was until the end od the conference. Then he get results. Lord Walter Runciman showed him a map before midnight as said to him: You cannot say a word until leaving Germany, "If you didnt accept, you will be alone against Germany."

Our diplomat Vojtěch Mastný said: "You are making us choose between murder and suicide."

 

[Lolkar]

Yeah I don't really understand the series of events in reality here, the münich agreement gave the sudetenland to the germans, but did the czech give it up? I mean of they didn't then hitler would have had to take it anyway.

He could have decline, but we would be without allies thanks to N. Ch. President Edvard Beneš said: "I Cant lead our nation into massacre." Army was prepared Generally too, they wanted war. But he was smart, he didnt sign that, neither parlament so it was easier to get our lands back. With sign of parlament we maybe couldn never get it back, Germany officialy cancelled this agreement in F***ing 1973. And for extras we could be charged as aggresors after the war.

PS: see that citation arent 100% right, its hard to translate them word by word.

 

[llib]

Yeah I don't really understand the series of events in reality here, the münich agreement gave the sudetenland to the germans, but did the czech give it up? I mean of they didn't then hitler would have had to take it anyway.

The deal was supposed to be, Germans get what they want, and rest of Czechoslovakia will be guaranteed by signators. However some of the details were supposed to be agreed between Reich and Czechoslovakia afterwards, and in reality, Germany just kept adding to the demands. At one point the Czechoslovak government tried to ask France and Britain accordingly to guarantee what was agreed in Munich, and were bullied and threatened, and there was nothing much that could be done because without border areas there was no hope of stopping the german armies anymore.
And then Hitler threatened Slovaks(in fact he managed to intimidate enough Tiso, who didn't even had any mandate to agree anything) into declaring independence, which allowed him to say Czechoslovakia just dissolved when he marched in remainder of Czech countries.
Allies(including Poland) paid the price for that betrayal just half year later - unlike Polish leadership, Czechoslovak was not delusioned with ideas of cavalry charge up to Berlin, and instead planned realistically - eventually planned/expected withdrawal intended evacuation from Czech lands and depending on war status even Moravia and it could not be expected we would be forced to capitulate in one month, also Germany would lack 1/3 of their artillery and large part of their tanks, not to mention numerous other war material.

 

[telesien]

Hi Lolkar,
someone else already correcter "minomet", but I don't think part about "armored divisions" was corrected.
Pre-war, Czechoslovakia did not had any armored divisions, only "fast divisions". This is not matter of naming only - they were divisions consisting of one armored and one cavalry brigade. So it's correct to say that highest armored formations were armored brigades(I think one was on full numbers, two were on modest numbers and one had almost no tanks at all).
I would also say that Tancik vz.33 was far inferior to Pz.I, armament wise perhaps comparable, but otherwise they were very poor vehicles that is questionable even whether they should have been accepted by army (not meeting the requirements they were supposed to). They were useful against Freikorps uprising, but they were useless against conventional army (essentially motorized machinegun). They can be compared to bren carriers.
Lt vz.34 had number of problems but they were relatively good.
Lt vz.35 were very good.
Lt vz.38 were coming in 1939, and were effective till 1942(with Hetzer as derivative lasting until after war).
St vz.39 were coming perhaps late in 1939(in limited numbers), and would be on par if not better than any pz.3 or pz.4 of the time.
Otherwise, I am reasonably sure Czechoslovak fortifications will be included to similar extent compared to HOI3.
I'm not sure how much will those fortifications work, though, in earlier build Johan had his units fighting in Maginot line remnants for some months, but we'll need to wait and see for release of HOI4.
It's also something we need to wait and see about industrial potential, Czech countries were industrial hearth of Austro-Hungarian empire and this industry mostly kept on after ww1.

There are several things one must consider when it comes to army of Czechoslovakia against Wehrmacht.
Considering all factors, the ability of Czechoslovakia to successfully defend is vastly overestimated these days.

- Tanks - the often mentioned weapon - were not nearly in sufficient numbers, not to mention their tactical implementation
- Forts - the other factor - were also not nearly sufficient. The original plans for heavy fortifications were not finished due to time and budget constraints. Anschulss of Austria created new border. The replacement light fortifications could only stop pure infantry attack. They had no way of stopping mechanized units or survive artillery fire. They were shallow and equiped only with few light and even fewer heavy machine guns.
- Infantry was sufficiently equiped, the nuber of machine guns per soldiers were comparable, but there were severe problems with training and tactics, that for example didn't allow effective use of said machine guns
-Artillery - the lightning of generals - was based on outdated principle of favouring super-heavy guns and there was sever lack of smaller and mobile pieces that were shown to be crucial in the early years
- Airforce was clearly unsufficient. Avia fighters were result of wrong bet on maneauverability over speed, French bomber produced under license were outdated and both were not nearly in sufficient numbers
- Tactical and strategic skills of Czech generals were not on par with Germans. For example when the army was mobilized in September 1938, all units took exactly the same positions as they did during prior mobilization earlier that year. This is horrible mistake that would have been punished severly
- Support of local population in the border areas was questionable at best. Germany could rely on large number of agents and volunteer units that were even inside the Czechoslovakian army itself and would easily create chaos
- Planning and strategy was clearly on German side. They did prepare for the eventual invasion very carefully. Previously mentioned agents mapped all possible routes very carefully including the position and nationality of gandarmes, capacity and structure of bridges, roads and railways.

All-in-all: if you think Germany stormed over Poland, they would have even easier time against Czechoslovakia

 

[Secret Master]

Anschulss of Austria created new border.

I consider this to be one of the most significant factors.

Assuming the Czechs are allied with France and Britain, and assuming that France would actually launch attacks if the vast majority of the German army was pushing against the Czechs, I'd give them decent odds of doing well.

But with Austria out of the picture, the forts and front is too screwed up to form the kind of defense needed to stonewall the Germans.

 

[telesien]

I consider this to be one of the most significant factors.

Assuming the Czechs are allied with France and Britain, and assuming that France would actually launch attacks if the vast majority of the German army was pushing against the Czechs, I'd give them decent odds of doing well.

But with Austria out of the picture, the forts and front is too screwed up to form the kind of defense needed to stonewall the Germans.

It wasn't THAT important. There were still two major attack directions from south.

One across the old border and Böhmerwald and the other from the new border, but very close to old one. From Gmünd to Třeboň and Budweis. No major attack across southern Moravia was considered. It mostly just cause another fractioning of already thinly stretched resources

 

[Lolkar]

There are several things one must consider when it comes to army of Czechoslovakia against Wehrmacht.
Considering all factors, the ability of Czechoslovakia to successfully defend is vastly overestimated these days.

- Tanks - the often mentioned weapon - were not nearly in sufficient numbers, not to mention their tactical implementation
- Forts - the other factor - were also not nearly sufficient. The original plans for heavy fortifications were not finished due to time and budget constraints. Anschulss of Austria created new border. The replacement light fortifications could only stop pure infantry attack. They had no way of stopping mechanized units or survive artillery fire. They were shallow and equiped only with few light and even fewer heavy machine guns.
- Infantry was sufficiently equiped, the nuber of machine guns per soldiers were comparable, but there were severe problems with training and tactics, that for example didn't allow effective use of said machine guns
-Artillery - the lightning of generals - was based on outdated principle of favouring super-heavy guns and there was sever lack of smaller and mobile pieces that were shown to be crucial in the early years
- Airforce was clearly unsufficient. Avia fighters were result of wrong bet on maneauverability over speed, French bomber produced under license were outdated and both were not nearly in sufficient numbers
- Tactical and strategic skills of Czech generals were not on par with Germans. For example when the army was mobilized in September 1938, all units took exactly the same positions as they did during prior mobilization earlier that year. This is horrible mistake that would have been punished severly
- Support of local population in the border areas was questionable at best. Germany could rely on large number of agents and volunteer units that were even inside the Czechoslovakian army itself and would easily create chaos
- Planning and strategy was clearly on German side. They did prepare for the eventual invasion very carefully. Previously mentioned agents mapped all possible routes very carefully including the position and nationality of gandarmes, capacity and structure of bridges, roads and railways.

All-in-all: if you think Germany stormed over Poland, they would have even easier time against Czechoslovakia

Tanks - ok, tactical implementation, used as mobile forts used for shieldind breaches, not like French tanks.
Forts - "survive artillery fire. They were shallow and equiped only with few light and even fewer heavy machine guns." what do you think survive artillery fire? for what we had our own artillery? Few... not true, it maybe wasnt at full capacity, but still look at the numbers please: Czechoslovak side: Light machine guns vz.24 30.500, Heavy machine guns vz.24, 37 8.800 Wehrmacht had 56.370 of MG 34 and around 7k submachine guns. Its not that bad for Czechoslovak side.
Infantry - normal soldier at both sides had probably same training... You cant compare SS soldier with normal Czechoslovak soldier who is in army for 1 year, same as you cant compare Czechoslovak elite units Hraničářský pluk with normal Wehrmacht soldier
Artillery - I have looked about our "immobile" artilleries, i found vz.15 that was pretty immobile but we had only 11 pieces, others seems pretty mobile to be dragged by horses or trucks. We had even 279 ks of mountain cannons, 620kg seem like a feather for artillery.
Airforce - true
Tactics - Czechoslovak generally estimated German battleplan with pretty high efficiency.
Local population - true, their armored forces Freikorps really started attacking villages, soldiers, etc. We had SOS Service of Defence of State. They were police, volunteers or veterans from WW1, they was efficient against Freikorps with help of army.
Planning - true, but if they thought this will be good route for attack, Czechoslovak Army will be prepared, why do you think we have builded forts? they wasnt like Magiton line, this forts were builded with the use of terrain. Or without forts, still better be in trench than try to get closer to digged soldiers in good terrain and position.

If Germans attacked Czechoslovakia in 1938 it would have delayed whole WW2. Czechoslovaks would have stand better than Polaks. Estimated Wehrmacht losses were 20% and above in case of attack. And in 38 Wehrmacht didnt had Czechoslovak equipment like against Poland.

 

[Lolkar]

It wasn't THAT important. There were still two major attack directions from south.

One across the old border and Böhmerwald and the other from the new border, but very close to old one. From Gmünd to Třeboň and Budweis. No major attack across southern Moravia was considered. It mostly just cause another fractioning of already thinly stretched resources

Please use atleast english names of this cities, its terrible to read it in deutsch.

 

[telesien]

Tanks - ok, tactical implementation, used as mobile forts used for shieldind breaches, not like French tanks.
Forts - "survive artillery fire. They were shallow and equiped only with few light and even fewer heavy machine guns." what do you think survive artillery fire? for what we had our own artillery? Few... not true, it maybe wasnt at full capacity, but still look at the numbers please: Czechoslovak side: Light machine guns vz.24 30.500, Heavy machine guns vz.24, 37 8.800 Wehrmacht had 56.370 of MG 34 and around 7k submachine guns. Its not that bad for Czechoslovak side.
Infantry - normal soldier at both sides had probably same training... You cant compare SS soldier with normal Czechoslovak soldier who is in army for 1 year, same as you cant compare Czechoslovak elite units Hraničářský pluk with normal Wehrmacht soldier
Artillery - I have looked about our "immobile" artilleries, i found vz.15 that was pretty immobile but we had only 11 pieces, others seems pretty mobile to be dragged by horses or trucks. We had even 279 ks of mountain cannons, 620kg seem like a feather for artillery.
Airforce - true
Tactics - Czechoslovak generally estimated German battleplan with pretty high efficiency.
Local population - true, their armored forces Freikorps really started attacking villages, soldiers, etc. We had SOS Service of Defence of State. They were police, volunteers or veterans from WW1, they was efficient against Freikorps with help of army.
Planning - true, but if they thought this will be good route for attack, Czechoslovak Army will be prepared, why do you think we have builded forts? they wasnt like Magiton line, this forts were builded with the use of terrain. Or without forts, still better be in trench than try to get closer to digged soldiers in good terrain and position.

If Germans attacked Czechoslovakia in 1938 it would have delayed whole WW2. Czechoslovaks would have stand better than Polaks. Estimated Wehrmacht losses were 20% and above in case of attack. And in 38 Wehrmacht didnt had Czechoslovak equipment like against Poland.

Ad forts - heavy fortresses were complex concrete monsters with artilery bunkers and AT artillery. The light fortifications (řopík) were machine gun only and very vunlerable against artillery fire and bombs. Good enough against infantry without support, easy to overcome by dedicated attack of combined forces.

Ad infantry - IIRC there was a problem of insufficient training and numbers of NCO personel, which is kind of key factor for effective use of small infantry unit. Other than that there was severe lack of AT artillery and ammunition and even worse motorization than in German army

Ad artillery - except the already mentioned missing light AT guns for infantry units, there were other problems. Useless heavy guns like the 6 240mm heavy guns. When you have pieces, that take 20 hours to prepare for fire, they are useless in mobile encounter. Even worse was the situation with 16 305mm howitzers. Even the seemingly useful 150mm guns had terrible rate of fire in 3 shots per minute for whole battery, which is not nearly enough to cause big enough casualties to attacking infantry. The biggest problem was of course very insufficient mobility. Only one regiment was fully motorized! And mind you, this wasn't due to lack of resources, but it was deliberate decision due to sever lack of drivers.
Light artillery units were better equiped (although still worse equiped than their German counterparts), but they were still held back by insufficient number of fire controll stations in the fortification system. They were essentially blind against mobile units.

ad tactics and planning - yes, they built forts, but as mentioned earlier, despite the romantic ideas of today, they were not nearly sufficient way to stop focused attack. Except the few finished larger systems, they would have been easily isolated and destroyed. Later in war Germans showed that they can effectively overcome much heavier fortifications.
20% loss estimate is nice, but it doesn't say much. Everyone - including Germans - was surprised how effective their strategic doctrine showed up to be against Poland.
Don't really see how delaying of WW2 is a factor here, sorry.

Doctrine of Czechoslovakian army did rely on static defense, but wasn't able to make the key strongpoints strong enough.

 

[telesien]

Please use atleast english names of this cities, its terrible to read it in deutsch.

What english names? There isn't really much english names for Czech cities. They mostly use german ones...

 

[Gort11]

On the positive side, at least Czechoslovakia wouldn't have the USSR kicking in the back door at the same time.

 

[Tvarog]

All-in-all: if you think Germany stormed over Poland, they would have even easier time against Czechoslovakia

Czechoslovaks would have stand better than Polaks.

Because:

And in 39' poles (not polaks - please) had: 880 tanks against 2,7 k; 400 aeroplanes against 1,3 k; 4,3 k artillery against 10 k; 1 mln troops against 1,8 mln germans.
Additionally on the other side came 0,6 mln troops, 5 k artillary, 5 k tanks and 3,3 k aeroplanes of Red Star Army.
Also different terrain - grater poland and mazuria (west prussia) are mostly flatlands, Czechs had much more defensive terrain.

So it's totally true that if Poland would realize Piłsudski politics and not stand against Czechs, Germans would have really hard time conquering Czechoslovakia, or at least it would take a lot more time then September campaign, what means delaying all war and giving more time for poland and grater allies to prepare.

 

[zyphial]

Actually, striking back to the OP, isn't it more correct for the Czech republic to not have the forts? Isn't there a generic national focus that builds up forts, specifically to simulate this?

If not, then yes definitely they should be there by default. I think it might actually make sense to add one though. Certainly the Czechs fortified their position as a minor, and I don't think they were alone amongst minors in doing so. Historical AI should beeline for it in Czechoslovakia, and it would give other minors interesting options (what if the Dutch/Belgians extend the Maginot?). It would also present an aspiring Czech player with an interesting option: focus on fortifying borders and fighting Germany early or focus on reversing the loss of the Sudentenland later.

Just a thought, anyway.

 

[camfrlas]

Actually, striking back to the OP, isn't it more correct for the Czech republic to not have the forts? Isn't there a generic national focus that builds up forts, specifically to simulate this?

If not, then yes definitely they should be there by default. I think it might actually make sense to add one though. Certainly the Czechs fortified their position as a minor, and I don't think they were alone amongst minors in doing so. Historical AI should beeline for it in Czechoslovakia, and it would give other minors interesting options (what if the Dutch/Belgians extend the Maginot?). It would also present an aspiring Czech player with an interesting option: focus on fortifying borders and fighting Germany early or focus on reversing the loss of the Sudentenland later.

Just a thought, anyway.

there may be national focus for this, but as i understand it, the game tries to simulate 1936 starting position for each nation (manpower, equipment and so on, and forts), so there should be at least some level of forts. even if i acknowledge the fact, that Czechoslovakia was still building them and there were not as much of them as there was in 1938, there still should me some from the start.