Czechoslovakia defence/forts

[Lolkar]

Hi, first i would like to talk about Czechoslovakia fort defence. In last WWW i didnt see any forts located in Czechoslovakia. I may be blind or they didnt implemented them yet, but i want to make this clear. Im not expert, but i read a lot of books about our military and from these books i get this informations. In this picture you can see Czechoslovakia line of forts that were finished or almost finished (did not had equipment, facings, fans or camouflage, we had a lot of weapons, just lack of weapon hinges). Estimated number of finished light forts(from year 2003, a lot of them were destroyed during communism) was 9089. Most equipped were northern lines and line of south Moravia with 92% and less in Bohemia and Slovakia. There was less heavy forts, about 263 (with guns, artillery, minomets and with big crew). For example Heavy artillery fort Adam had total number of objects 8 and crew of 600 mans. Some fortes wasnt equipped up to 100%, but i would like more to fight in these instead of attacking these.

Spoiler

In this URL you can read about Battle of Ostrava = what happened if our forts were attacked in 1945 with T-34/85, not Pz I or II. http://www.radio.cz/en/section/special/liberating-ostrava-the-bloodiest-wwii-battle-on-czech-soil
Local historian Jaromir Breuer:
"When the brigade moved to Poland it was equipped with 65 new tanks. By the end of the battle for Ostrava, only around 7 or 8 of them remained. And then only 3 of them rolled into Prague on the 10th May 1945".

I found video from this event
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70O_cUyxjao

Northern forts were defended by Border units (Hraničářský pluk), they were most skilled soldiers that could do anything from using minomets, guns, artillery, drive and even could use tanks. Their officers were mostly veterans of WW1.
We had 5 armies and Backup: Located in Bohemia, northern Moravia, Slovakia and Uzhorod, Southern Moravia and Reserves of 500k mans located in Vyškov. Total of 1,112 milion of mobilized mans.
(remember that only about 30% of mens were located near forts, other unist have builded field fortification with guns artillery, minomets and etc. reserves were little far from borders in the case of breakthrought)

In this picture you can see how trenches were builded.

Spoiler

This is one of best defended line, you can see a lot of forts Lehké opevnění vz. 36 and 37 are light objects, rest are heavy.

Spoiler

Czechoslovakia Generally had a plan in case of breakthrought: If enemy units break throught 1st line of defence, we had another behind it. In this case airplanes and artillery would focus at this location and wait for Armored divisions to seal up this hole.

Another thing i want to talk about is, in WWW i did not saw Armored divisions. Czechoslovaks in the year 1938 had 4 armored divisions. We had 70 of Tančík vz.33, they could be compared to Pz I

Spoiler

Then we had 50 of Lt vz.34 and 298 of Lt vz.35, which were so good that Germans used them even in Poland, France and Operation Barbarossa.

I get, that we start in year 1936 and a lot of this numbers are from 38, but i dont think Czechs (or any minor) is able to build this equipment (that he historically created) in this time (it seems unfair to me). I was thinking about mod, but if i would like to play MP with unknown people i will be forced not to use it becouse of different versions. And i dont think people would download Czechoslovak mod.

Please if you have any questions, I will try to answer to them and sorry for my English.

PS: Im really tired from this writing

 

[Denkt]

In previous HOI I think Czechoslovakia had forts however these may have been removed because you can get forts from national focuses.

3 Research slots should give you quite some ability to develop some tanks but you can not develop everything.

 

[DuroSVK]

In previous HOI I think Czechoslovakia had forts however these may have been removed because you can get forts from national focuses.

3 Research slots should give you quite some ability to develop some tanks but you can not develop everything.

Well, at least some of those Czechoslovakian forts should remain, same reason as maginot line exists in the game as well.
Many of those tanks were allready developed and allready being in use in 1936

 

[Kolaris]

Do not get butthurt about ur own country dude , they focus on majors not minor countries ... so do not expect everything

I sincerely hope that isn't the mindset of the dev team. The defensive readiness of Czechoslovakia has an enormous influence on those Majors and the path of the war. Without the Munich Agreement the early successes of Germany in '39-'40 go right out the window, since they had no means of tackling the Czech border forts. No blitzkrieg successes would likely mean a Germany on the defensive on the western front as Hitler originally expected.

But I'm beginning to worry that this game is more about presenting the mainstream romantic ideas of WW2 than the actual historical what-ifs. In the original WWW the Munich Agreement is just a focus for Germany and something the British player had 0 say in.

 

[Nicolas I]

Do not get butthurt about ur own country dude , they focus on majors not minor countries ... so do not expect everything

As they included some what-ifs scenarios (in some national focuses) like the Little entente, the historical readiness and relative strength of some minors do matter.

 

[vfmikey]

With Czech forts in Sudetenland being held by the Czech, the World not giving into the Munich agreements, German conquest of Czechoslovakia would've been very painful, the offensive on Poland greatly delayed etc.

 

[BoleslavLev]

I too hope they will develop minors more in the future (at least the more interesting ones or those with big potential - like Czechoslovakia, Poland, Spain, Turkey, China etc.). Czechoslovakia should have some forts and/or NI (eventually) for forts. But it is important to point out that Czechoslovakia could not defend itself against Germany in 38 - The Munich Agreement had to be accepted at that time. In 1936 you could still prepare a bit better, but not extremely better. Havig the help of allies would change a lot, but Czechoslovakia alone wasn´t that strong.

 

[Nicolas I]

I repost here what I wrote in an earlier thread about Czechoslovakia:

Czechoslovakia was not that overpowered by Germany, at least in the 1936-38 time frame.

From a published study I found, Czechoslovakia despite its limited size made a remarkable mobilization effort prior to 1938 to get the 6th army in Europe. They began as soon as 1932 after the failure of the Geneva disarmament conference.

In 1938 quasi fully mobilized Czechoslovakia - scraping the barrel - had about 42 divisions (including trained reserve divisions) against Germany 47 divisions (plus 8 reserve divisions and 21 untrained Landwehr divisions). Remember that Germany was not mobilized at that time for political reasons, but they had a big potential given some time. The 1936 Czech mobilization plan accounted a potential of 970 000 men.

Czechoslovakia had 2 250 artillery pieces against 3 000 for Germany.
Czechoslovakia had 418 tanks (700 more were ordered) against 2 100 for Germany. Czechs LT34 and LT35 being better than Panzer I and II.
Czechoslovakia had 600 planes against 1 230 for Germany. Germans planes being more modern and diversified.

Czechoslovakia had fortifications (250 forts and 10 000 bunkers), but lacked a bit in AT guns and AA guns. They had good small arms in quantities being a big exporting country.

 

[Nicolas I]

...minomets...

Minomets = mortars.

 

[The Nothing]

I repost here what I wrote in an earlier thread about Czechoslovakia:

Czechoslovakia was not that overpowered by Germany, at least in the 1936-38 time frame.

From a published study I found, Czechoslovakia despite its limited size made a remarkable mobilization effort prior to 1938 to get the 6th army in Europe. They began as soon as 1932 after the failure of the Geneva disarmament conference.

In 1938 quasi fully mobilized Czechoslovakia - scraping the barrel - had about 42 divisions (including trained reserve divisions) against Germany 47 divisions (plus 8 reserve divisions and 21 untrained Landwehr divisions). Remember that Germany was not mobilized at that time for political reasons, but they had a big potential given some time. The 1936 Czech mobilization plan accounted a potential of 970 000 men.

Czechoslovakia had 2 250 artillery pieces against 3 000 for Germany.
Czechoslovakia had 418 tanks (700 more were ordered) against 2 100 for Germany. Czechs LT34 and LT35 being better than Panzer I and II.
Czechoslovakia had 600 planes against 1 230 for Germany. Germans planes being more modern and diversified.

Czechoslovakia had fortifications (250 forts and 10 000 bunkers), but lacked a bit in AT guns and AA guns. They had good small arms in quantities being a big exporting country.

Agree, always felt Czechoslovakia in HoI 3, was like any country AI Germany must destroy early on, under rated. While playing Czechoslovakia you can barely build good tanks, forts, and a strong army, being limited to something like 100 manpower pre-war. With almost no way of building your own aircrafts too. And though Czech tanks were clearly not bad, in game Germany can do better even though we know today their firsts tanks were clearly not that great.

Also, whatever you're doing as Czechoslovakia, the Little Entente can never work in HoI 3. If you're France too, you can guarantee Czechoslovakia as much as you want, still the event will fire and you'll have nothing to say about it. Scripting that much diplomacy was always disappointing.... Countries like Czechoslovakia couldn't rely on their industry only to survive, diplomacy on the other hand could to that. That's by diplomacy Germany achieved most of its succes, without Molotov Ribbentropp pact, thing would have been quite different for sure. No Munich agreement too. The Little Entente existing would change lots of things too.

Last but not least, HoI series failed to represent correctly what a war between Czechoslovakia and Germany would mean. Firstly, loosing a lot of men, for political purpose you can't just forget about it. Then material loss. Needless to say in HoI 3 series Germany could afford to lose hundreds of tanks and just laugh. Yet I think it wouldn't really laugh IRL while losing tanks/planes that costs so much to replace with no real gain afterwards, and while dangerously arousing german's neighbours. The last thing Germany wanted was a war with France and UK in 1938.

 

[Secret Master]

There shall be no accusations of butthurt, especially not when someone is asking a legitimate question about the inclusion of something really obvious like the forts in question.

 

[Augery]

There were two Czech armoured divisions in WWW (I think, the icons are a bit hard to see in Twtch's resolution) They were both in the far east of Slovakia and are probably the reason things went so slow on that part of the front. For some reason they have infantry sprites but the icon looks like a tank to me.

 

[Sun_Killer]

yeah saw this too

 

[steviksk]

I have one question. If Germany chooses Munich agreement from National focus tree Czechoslovakia just immediately loses their territories in northern Bohemia ? It would be nice if they had option to defend those even if there would be almost no chance of succee

 

[Sun_Killer]

If you are a player or the ai fells confindent germany is weak. You can fight the agreement.

 

[TheRomanRuler]

This came up when i googled "minomet"

Damn, if that thing is mortar... What kind of artillery do you guys have???

Is that even historical vehicle or is it armored spearhead of Photoshop?

 

[Sun_Killer]

looks russian to me

 

[TheRomanRuler]

looks russian to me

Well i did found it from internet with fast google search. So it could easily be Chinese water hose.

 

[Sir Garnet]

Czechoslovakia was a major armament maker and vendor and its army could be appropriately represented with units and research levels and the standard foci.

If Poland hadn't jumped in with its own ultimatum demanding territory, Benes said his government would have refused the Munich Pact, which would have put their French ally very much on the spot to do something. Poland supporting Czechoslovakia would have made a big difference, helping to push the Little Entente and the French to step up, or at least leave options open. The Hungarians wanted to share in a land grab, not a war. With refusal from Prague, Germany would probably have had to back down or just leave things in suspense and await diplomatic maneuvers.

There is also that the impending invasion order would probably have triggered a coup attempt by the plotters to forestall it. British and Polish initiatives eased German concerns and circumstances fell into place for a conquest without war.

 

[Nicolas I]

This came up when i googled "minomet"

These are more or less contemporary assault guns. Try a bit more and do some research for WW2 and you will find mortars photos.