Czechoslovakia 1938(in numbers+little about earlier years)

[Edbi]

I'm not Czech, but I was really disappointed in HOI3 at how weak the check industry and military was. It should of course be not even remotely close the great powers, but it did actually have among the most developed industries in Europe at the time, and was one of few non-Axis nations that really invested in mobilizing before the war. They should not be able to stand alone against Germany, no matter how many Central/Eastern European allies they have. However they should be among the strongest in Central Europe, definitely stronger than agricultural Hungary which in HOI3 has almost twice the available IC for some reason.

As a history geek I have to agree with Edbi here. CS should have almost as much IC and leadership as Poland, but with less manpower, resources and smaller starting army, and thus rank second in power among the Central European minors: Poland > CS > Austria > Hungary. Of course Germany should still be able to beat them all at the same time if it doesn't need most of the army somewhere else.

Thx Mirage, it is nice to see ppl with sence for facts and history.
I hope that countries like Poland, CS, Yugoslavia and Romania have some focus like central european alliance or something, it could be very nice ahistorical focus, those four together could be very dangerous, with lot of menpower, industry and resources

 

[Denkt]

HOI3 did not handle stuff in a realistic way:

• Production: In HOI3 if one factory built a weapon, somehow all your factories in your country became better at building that weapon and the gain was static, it did not matter how many factories you had which mean majors who had most factories would get insane cost reductions which in return meant they could increase their practicals even more and snowball far beyond what minors could. So majors would produce more equipment for a cheaper price per equipment.
• Technology: Majors got ridiculous more leadership then minors and for each technology you research you get better at research and research cost is greatly tied into how many practicals you have. This ment that majors would produce more equipment at a cheaper price and these equipment would be way more advanced then what minors could produce.

In real life:

• Did majors produce more equipment: Yes but this was due to: many industrialised minors was conquered, majors building equipment like they would get conquered tomorrow (alot of equipment was sold, given away or just scrapped after the war) and having access to massive amount of resources.
• Did majors have access to much more advanced technology: Debatable, everyone use technology that was developed in other nations like the most important USA medium and light anti air was designs from minor countries. Germany did build advanced V2 rocket but at the same time did not build ship with dual purpose guns something like Sweden did.

Here is some technologies Sweden had access to about year 1950:

• Radar
• Jets
• Electronical mechanical computer
• Proximity fuse (maybe somewhat later in 1950s)
• Aircraft carried rockets
• Automatical loaded dual purpose 152 mm ship guns (maybe the only true successful design of this gun type, still used today)
• Bofors M/48 (Still used today, probably far more advanced then any medium anti air gun used in ww2 including bofors M/36)
• Fire control machines (Atleast for ships, used maybe since 1920s)
• Destroyers with dual purpose 120 mm guns who could fire about 20 shells per minute
• Drop tanks
• Gun pod for the Saab 21R aircraft allowing this aircraft carry as many as 13 guns

Getting these technologies in HOI3 would be more or less impossible, at the best they would be ridiculous worse then the major powers then some of these was better then what most if not all major powers used around the same time.

 

[BoleslavLev]

Ah yes, another Czechoslovakia thread. Keep em coming, it is a nice read. To break it down from the game pov for everybody I will say this:
1) Fascist countries are buffed by like 100% to even stand a chance.
2) Czechoslovakia is on the level of Albania so the Germany can just take it.
3) There are no alliances (that I know of) unless they buff fascist, cause Germany in 1938 just can´t beat France and USSR - even just Czechoslovakia and USSR would totally stomp over Germany (it would probably get Czechoslovakia, but then Russians would just annex all of it and all of Germany as well if needed).
3.1) They can´t even be created until Germany already annexed Czechoslovakia (world tension and all - usually Germany will cause it, unless player will make it go high quicker).
4) As a security measure, USSR was nerfed by like 70% (either you do the purge and will be punished for it or you won´t and will be punished for it).

I am a bit butthurt by that not because I think Czechoslovakia would beat Germany, but because I think France and USSR would (but then you probably wouldn´t have much of a WW I guess).

So yeah - don´t be stupid, be a smarty, c´mon join the nazi party! If Czechoslovakia wants to get to it´s own level of power, it has to go fascist. And that´s why I will play Turkey - it seems to be on the level of Czechoslovakian Czechoslovakia (you know, not the in game Czechoslovakia).

 

[JerkyJerry]

Don't people get tired of posting these "Country X was military giant!" posts?

No
However I am tired of reading them

 

[Kovax]

Denkt clearly points out part of the snowballing problems with Practicals and Theoreticals in HOI3, but missed the additional compounding factor. Each level of Education or Production research gave a percentage increase, so a major power with 20 Leadership would get 5% of that 20, which was 1 full point of Leadership, and pay back the 1 research slot investment in just 1 research cycle. A minor country with 5 Leadership would typically pay more for the Leadership increase due to Theoreticals, and would get the same 5% boost. 5% of 5 is 0.25, so it took 4+ research cycles (about 3-4 years) to recover the same investment. Everything about the game seemed to compound, so the rich not only got richer, but at an ever-increasing compounded rate, while the poor struggled to achieve fairly small and mostly linear increases. The technical disparity in 1936 turned into a massive chasm by 1945, where historically the smaller countries tended to keep pace a few years behind.

 

[Denkt]

I much more prefer HOI4 technological system with each tech being a rather big improvement then the incremental HOI3 system. Nobody is going to get all techs in a normal HOI4 game which is a good thing because it make prioritising alot more important and the much less difference between minor and major (Major get more tech but not better tech) is better both for game balance and for realism.

The production system with local efficiency and different strategic resources is also better then the global practical system HOI3 have.

 

[GhengisKhan]

Denkt clearly points out part of the snowballing problems with Practicals and Theoreticals in HOI3, but missed the additional compounding factor. Each level of Education or Production research gave a percentage increase, so a major power with 20 Leadership would get 5% of that 20, which was 1 full point of Leadership, and pay back the 1 research slot investment in just 1 research cycle. A minor country with 5 Leadership would typically pay more for the Leadership increase due to Theoreticals, and would get the same 5% boost. 5% of 5 is 0.25, so it took 4+ research cycles (about 3-4 years) to recover the same investment. Everything about the game seemed to compound, so the rich not only got richer, but at an ever-increasing compounded rate, while the poor struggled to achieve fairly small and mostly linear increases. The technical disparity in 1936 turned into a massive chasm by 1945, where historically the smaller countries tended to keep pace a few years behind.

Absolutely spot on for HoI3 but i don't see this being an issue with HoI4 with the research slots. If a minor gets all 5 as quick as possible they can still stay withing a few years of a majors techs now.

 

[The Guru]

Hungary: I didn't watch the video discussed, so I don't know what year that Hungarian invasion took place, but I just wanted to mention that Hungarian was forbidden to rearm under the provisions of The Trianon treaty ( it did start to rearm secretly, but obviously it was very partial) and the restrictions on rearmament were only lifted in august 1938 during the Bled Agreement.
Historically, Hungary vs Czechoslovakia would probably have been stopped cold on its tracks and sparked intervention from Yugoslavia and Romania, probably supported by France and the UK...

 

[Edbi]

Hungary: I didn't watch the video discussed, so I don't know what year that Hungarian invasion took place, but I just wanted to mention that Hungarian was forbidden to rearm under the provisions of The Trianon treaty ( it did start to rearm secretly, but obviously it was very partial) and the restrictions on rearmament were only lifted in august 1938 during the Bled Agreement.
Historically, Hungary vs Czechoslovakia would probably have been stopped cold on its tracks and sparked intervention from Yugoslavia and Romania, probably supported by France and the UK...

in 1936 after conquering Austria, and CS was conquered very quickly by infantry only, only special units seen in CS was mountain division

 

[The Guru]

in 1936 after conquering Austria, and CS was conquered very quickly by infantry only, only special units seen in CS was mountain division

Well, that's absolute fantasy

 

[J_Master]

So yeah - don´t be stupid, be a smarty, c´mon join the nazi party!

Join our third Reich. (Horstwessellied parody by thedubuya). But yes, cs is nerfed, and ger is buffed, to give "ze zjermans" a fighting chans

 

[BoleslavLev]

To me it really seems fascist countries get a huge buff because they can attack everybody from the start - so Pdx is pretty much deciding which country to "buff" by making it fascist. (I guess they are pretty historic at this - is Poland fascist?).

 

[Dalnar]

I don't think the goverment were fascist. More like military autoritian goverment type?

 

[BoleslavLev]

Well but there are only 4 types you can be - democratic, communist, fascist and neutral. Poland was closest to the fascist one.

EDIT: But I am pretty sure Pdx will make Poland neutral or democratic to nerf it HARD.

 

[sascz]

1) Little Entente was formed only against Hungary and/or Austria. They dont have any war plans in case of war with Germany.
2) I dont think that western allieds (FRA and ENG) should help Czechoslovakia. They signed Munich agreement, so why they should do it when they bringed "Peace for ours time"
3) Structure of command was very complicated (build by France model) and it slowed any decision that were made on battlefield. It was almost impossible to quickly summon air support. etc..
4) Yes... when I am talking about aircrafts. B-534 were more agile then Bf - 109. But were slower. Luckily Germans had still lot of He-51 biplanes.

 

[Kovax]

1)
2) I dont think that western allieds (FRA and ENG) should help Czechoslovakia. They signed Munich agreement, so why they should do it when they bringed "Peace for ours time"
I don't think the UK should get involved. France is another story, since France had strongly supported the Little Entente until it decided to try improving relations with Italy as a counterbalance to Germany, which seriously eroded France's standing with the Balkan countries threatened by Italy, and the Little Entente gradually began breaking apart. When Italy abruptly chose to allow Germany to pursue its aims on Austria, France was left trying to restore the weakened ties. Hitler outmaneuvered them. Meanwhile, the UK was only beginning to take a serious interest in German expansion.

 

[BoleslavLev]

1) Little Entente was formed only against Hungary and/or Austria. They dont have any war plans in case of war with Germany.
2) I dont think that western allieds (FRA and ENG) should help Czechoslovakia. They signed Munich agreement, so why they should do it when they bringed "Peace for ours time"

It is not about France - it is about USSR. If USSR would crush Germany, Germany would be crushed. And USSR would totally crush Germany in 1938. The solution to this is something I expect in future DLC - better diplomacy and espionage. Germany didn´t want to go to war with the USSR in 1938 - it would lost, there´s not even a chance it wouldn´t (ok - nazi UK or USA maybe, but I am speaking from the historic pov now). So Germany was bluffing - threatening with war hoping with total desperation that there won´t be any. And that is something I am missing in HoI now (and I really expect this to be added later via DLC or mod). You can push the button to go for the Munich Agreement, but in reality there was constant bluffing going on - and because it is not going on here, it seems weird to give the land to Germany. Cause if Czechoslovakia would refuse, Germany would just die (the thing is Czechoslovakia would die as well - that is where the bluffing and aggressive diplomacy comes in).

 

[Dalnar]

In case of Czechoslovakia IT IS really about France. The CZE-SU defensive pact did rely on France, without France SU would not help CZE (and there is the problem of Poland/Romania not granting access to SU anyway). The whole point of it was (theoretical) fight on two fronts against Germany. Sadly, it would never work at that time, because Poland would rather see CZE dissolved than allowing SU troops to cross borders. It's kind of ironic that this attitude would backfire on them so harsh, first the nazi rape their country, then soviets take over for 50 years. Anyway, I think the CZ/SU would be incredible hard to implement with all its nuances, too much work for nothing.

I think National Unity should be a modifer whenever the country actually helps it's military allies. That way CZ and FR can be allied from the start, but should shit happen early, they will most likely not honour the Alliance (unless the alliance is improved via focus). Beside during the Munich Crisis, it was Chamberlain who waved the paper, but in fact it was France who did break (some would say betray) the alliance.

 

[BoleslavLev]

It is about France, but it is also not about it. My point is that the game can´t simulate Germans bluffing. If war broke out on just one front, Czechoslovakia would die and then the USSR would conquer Poland and Germany. It is not about USSR from the Czechoslovakian pov, but oh boy is it about USSR from the pov of Germany. Germans didn´t want to destroy their nation so they didn´t want war. They hoped that Czechoslovakia also wouldn´t want to destroy it´s nation so there won´t be any war - it was a game of nerves and Czechoslovakia lost it. This is not simulated in the game (unless to push the NI Munich Agreement you have to have army bigger than France, UK and USSR combined, which I doubt).

EDIT: fixed typos